Ron Santo and the HOF

In News And Rumors by dmick89110 Comments

Today marks the one-year anniversary of Ron Santo’s death.

I don’t know what else there is to say about Ron Santo’s Hall of Fame chances that hasn’t already been said. Last year, mb21 wrote these two articles about Santo’s career and how he stacks up with other third basemen in the HOF.

Ron Santo’s Hall of Fame Career
Hall of Fame 3rd Basemen and Ron Santo

Bill James and other researchers have said that he is long overdue for election, including this choice quote from James in his excellent Historical Baseball Abstract.

Look, certain things just do not happen. Rivers do not run uphill, iron does not become gold, time does not go backward, whores do not become virgins, pigs do not give birth to lions, supermodels do not marry auto mechanics, and politicians do not forget about the next election. There is no alchemy by which the Hall of Fame may become what it never has been. Ron Santo towers far above the real standard of the Hall of Fame.

Berselius: Ron Santo was a big reason why I became such a big Cubs fan. I was a casual fan of the team growing up but when I got to college I began regularly listening to the Pat and Ron show on WGN radio. After the movie This Old Cub was released a few years ago, I would always watch it at the beginning of the season. After Ronnie died last year it was still too soon to watch by the time spring training rolled around. It’s still too soon now. I’m not getting my hopes up for Santo’s election this year given how many times we’ve been disappointed in the past, but even if it does happen I don’t know when I’ll be ready again. We all lost something the day Ron Santo died, and when the Cubs finally win it all it won’t be the same without him at the microphone.

And Counting: Ron Santo never let diabetes break him. It shortened his career, but he still put up HOF numbers. It took his legs, but he still walked. It ended hs life, but it never stopped him from squeezing every last drop of life from the moments he had. I’ll never forget the story of Ronnie’s final night when his children held vigil as he held on for what everyone knew were his last breaths. After a long night of having his family by his side, the kids finally agreed to leave him alone. It wasn’t until the room was empty that Ronnie’s stubborn pride and unconquerable heart allowed him to finally let go. He wouldn’t let anyone see him die. 

Ron didn’t let anyone see that diabetes got to him, which is fascinating when compared with how a Ryan Theriot TOOTBLAN affected Ron. Lose a limb? Poker face. Get thrown out at third? NOOOO!!!! What is WRONG with this man? GOSH!!! The stuff that really hurt Ron, he kept hidden. The more superficial things like Cubs baseball and Pat Hughes’ wardrobe sent him into fits.

The Hall of Fame? That was somewhere in between. The first time Ron became eligibl for election by the veterans committee, he thought he was in. He was waiting by the phone. The media was on hand, friends and family were poised to congratulate him. It was no secret to anyone that his heart was broken by the call that never came. Ron didn’t hide his pain, but he didn’t prolong it either. He expressed his disappointment. He moved on. Later announcements didn’t phase him as much. He seemed to assume the worst, that he was never getting in. And if the Hall of Fame wasn’t good enough for him in life, he didn’t want to get in after his life was over.

For the joke the Hall of Fame election process has become, being a member of the Hall hasn’t lost its honor. For those who have been inducted and lived to enjoy it, the fraternity is sacred. That Ron Santo never got to enjoy that is a disgrace. And the members of the Hall are the ones who missed out; Ron Santo’s friendship and loyalty and spirit would have made that group of men better.

The indignity of Ron Santo’s exclusion from the Hall of Fame during his life is a tragedy that can’t be fixed. But the idiocy of failing to acknowledge his baseball accomplishments can and should be fixed. Not for the consciences of the morons who kept him out this long. Not because it’s what Ron would have wanted. And not because the Hall of Fame can be trusted to accurately portray the history of the game we all love. But for the memory of Ron and the fans of this game who look to perserve the best parts of baseball’s history in their minds and hearts, Ron should be in the Hall. When the question is asked, “Who were the best third basemen of all time?” Ron Santo needs to be included in that answer.

Aisle 424: I woke up this morning knowing today was the anniversary of Ronnie’s passing and immediately flashed back to a year ago when I was awoken by my clock radio tuned to Mike & Mike on ESPN talking about Ron Santo.  As I listened to the broadcast I became increasingly aware that something was wrong, and as it dawned on me what happened, I started to feel ill.  Sure enough as I pulled up Twitter and saw my entire feed filled with Cubs fans mourning, Mike Greenberg said the actual words that Ronnie had passed away.  It was like a punch in the stomach.

Now, here we are a year later and Cubs broadcasts, while maybe a little more informative with Keith in the booth, are decidedly less entertaining without Ron.  In a way, I’m kind of glad Ron missed last season, because it would have been about 90% moaning with the remaining 10% filled in with GOSH!es and JEEZE!s.  Maybe an occasional YES!!!, but those would have been few and very far between. But now he is missing out on the dawning of the Age of Theo.  I think he would have been very excited about the possibilities, even if maybe he didn’t fully understand Theo’s methods.

Plus, this year Ron is up for induction into the Hall of Fame through the new procedure put in place because the Veteran’s Committee hardly ever actually inducted anyone.  I don’t know how I feel about it.  I think I’m going to be pissed off no matter how it comes down.  If he doesn’t get inducted, I’m going to be pissed that someone who pretty clearly deserves to be inducted is left out yet again.  MB put it pretty well in the 2nd link above:

Santo has more WAR than 7 of the HOF [3rd basemen] and only 5 have more WAR than him.  He has more than the average of those players.  Santo belongs in the Hall of Fame.  Santo raises the bar if elected in.  Think about that.  A player that actually improves the average is not in.  That’s fucked up.

But if he gets in now after he died?  That is almost as fucked up as if he never made it at all.  I mean, he SHOULD get in because the Hall of Fame would be better off with him, but at this point I just don’t care about the Hall of Fame.  Ron has said he didn’t want to go in posthumously and both the writers and the Veterans had plenty of opportunity to do the right thing and put him in, so fuck them now.  Why should they get to congratulate each other and feel all benevolent like they let the homeless man into the private club to have a sandwich?  

In the end, I guess I want him to get elected and I know it will mean a lot to his family, but I’m going to be pretty fucking pissed either way.  Ronnie deserved to see the honor himself, but hopefully he is looking down and he’ll be happy.  We miss you Ron.

flowers2

(photo by Kris Peterson)


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  1. binky

    Great post about Ron. I think, though, that he actually died of cancer.

    EDIT: wikipedia says “complications from cancer and diabetes” so it was probably a chicken/egg type thing.

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  2. binky

    Ron used to drive me nuts, but it was always entertaining. I loved it when Ron was out and Pat would inevitably say “Ron Santo is at home right now listening to the broadcast in full Cubs uniform.”

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  3. mb21

    Good stuff, guys. I really enjoyed it.

    Regarding the HOF, Santo should be in and I don’t know what his wishes are, but he should be in. I hope he gets elected. I’ll feel bad for Ron. Shit, I already feel bad he wasn’t rightfully honored, but I’d feel worse if his family and friends never got to visit his plaque in Cooperstown. I’d feel sorry for all the Cooperstown visitors who don’t see it. I’d feel like they’ve been ripped off that one of the greatest 3rd basemen ever wasn’t even honored at the place they just visited.

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  4. mb21

    [quote name=josh]Ron used to drive me nuts, but it was always entertaining. I loved it when Ron was out and Pat would inevitably say “Ron Santo is at home right now listening to the broadcast in full Cubs uniform.”[/quote]I wasn’t a big fan of Santo the announcer. I’ve admitted that before and will continue to. He’s not a HOF announcer. He is a HOF player and it’s ridiculous he’s not in.

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  5. Suburbankid 22

    My favorite Ron Santo story is that frozen yogurt one. Ron was kind of a dick in the story, but he didn’t mind Pat mocking him for it on the air, several times.

    Truly one of kind, still missed.

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  6. GBTS

    [quote name=josh]I have to admit I probably wasn’t listening back in those days. I either caught it on the TV or not at all. But that was a great call.[/quote]Ron loses consciousness around 0:34.

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  7. Aisle424

    [quote name=GBTS]Ron loses consciousness around 0:34.[/quote]That call was almost as good as being there to see it happen. That was fucking insane and Pat nails the call.

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  8. Rice Cube

    I heart this post.

    Those of us who might believe in the afterlife should be hoping that he can see his induction (finally!) and click his heels from another plane of existence.

    SK, did you still have the file when Ron went apeshit after Theriot got picked off?

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  9. mb21

    Sandusky can’t even say he’s not sexually attracted to young kids without his fucking attorney informing him that he should say it. Unreal.

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  10. GBTS

    [quote name=mb21]Sandusky can’t even say he’s not sexually attracted to young kids without his fucking attorney informing him that he should say it. Unreal.[/quote]That guy is the worst fucking attorney on the planet. Seriously, like cartoon bad. He makes Lionel Hutz look like Clarence Darrow.

    Whatever amount of money Sandusky and Penn State eventually dole out in civil suits, this guy should match every penny in malpractice.

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  11. Suburban kid

    [quote name=GBTS](dying laughing)

    I’m really puzzled by your selection of bolded text.[/quote]My work is done here. (dying laughing)

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  12. Suburban kid

    I still have the file. I’m still trying to sync it to the video, but I haven’t been able to get a good video capture yet. The program I have only seems to capture every 10th frame or so.

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  13. mb21

    [quote name=GBTS]That guy is the worst fucking attorney on the planet. Seriously, like cartoon bad. He makes Lionel Hutz look like Clarence Darrow.

    Whatever amount of money Sandusky and Penn State eventually dole out in civil suits, this guy should match every penny.[/quote]I didn’t know he’d done another interview and just saw a clip on CNN and could not believe how fucking stupid Sandusky and his attorney are. It’s like a really bad movie. It’s just not easy to believe two people can be that fucking dumb.

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  14. GBTS

    [quote name=Suburban kid]I still have the file. I’m still trying to sync it to the video, but I haven’t been able to get a good video capture yet. The program I have only seems to capture every 10th frame or so.[/quote]What type of video file? I could probably do it, although not today.

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  15. mb21

    Twice now he has struggled to say he doesn’t find children to be sexually attracted. Both times he actually said he was attracted to them. It’s like he’s either trying to convict himself or trying to set up a situation in which every human agrees that the entire US justice system needs to be done away with in case he is found not guilty.

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  16. GBTS

    [quote name=mb21]I didn’t know he’d done another interview and just saw a clip on CNN and could not believe how fucking stupid Sandusky and his attorney are. It’s like a really bad movie. It’s just not easy to believe two people can be that fucking dumb.[/quote]Costas was on the Daily Show this week and he said the phone interview was entirely the attorney’s idea, he just brought it up as an idea out of nowhere.

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  17. Suburban kid

    (dying laughing) just looking at that game again, and I see Gorzelanny, Theriot, Nady, Lee and Lilly within a few seconds. Hey dudes! Been awhile!

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  18. Suburban kid

    [quote name=GBTS]What type of video file? I could probably do it, although not today.[/quote]It’s the stream from the MLB.TV archive. I’m trying it again now.

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  19. mb21

    [quote name=GBTS]Costas was on the Daily Show this week and he said the phone interview was entirely the attorney’s idea, he just brought it up as an idea out of nowhere.[/quote]Costas mentioned that in some article the next day. It’s unbelievable. The attorney just asked, “how would like to talk to Sandusky?” Unbelievable. It really is. I know you’re a law student (or graduated). What the hell are people you know saying about this lawyer?

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  20. Rice Cube

    [quote name=Aisle424]That call was almost as good as being there to see it happen. That was fucking insane and Pat nails the call.[/quote]How many times in history have the Cubs actually benefited from a TOOTBLAN? Actually I guess since nobody was thrown out, it wasn’t a TOOTBLAN.

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  21. GBTS

    [quote name=mb21]Costas mentioned that in some article the next day. It’s unbelievable. The attorney just asked, “how would like to talk to Sandusky?” Unbelievable. It really is. I know you’re a law student (or graduated). What the hell are people you know saying about this lawyer?[/quote]I haven’t really talked to people about the attorney, but I get the general vibe people think he’s a fucking moron. (dying laughing)

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  22. mb21

    [quote name=GBTS]I haven’t really talked to people about the attorney, but I get the general vibe people think he’s a fucking moron. (dying laughing)[/quote]That’s what I figured, but they just had a reporter on CNN (the one who supposedly broke the story) and she said she had talked to some attorneys and they said they had to get Sandusky out there to tell his side.

    I could see that if you think that Sandusky could actually say the following words in succession: No, I am absolutely not attracted to children. The idea sickens me.

    If he can’t say that, he has no business being on television. None.

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  23. Recalcitrant Blogger Nate

    [quote name=mb21]Twice now he has struggled to say he doesn’t find children to be sexually attracted. Both times he actually said he was attracted to them. It’s like he’s either trying to convict himself or trying to set up a situation in which every human agrees that the entire US justice system needs to be done away with in case he is found not guilty.[/quote]
    I seriously think the dude should be put on suicide watch, because it seems like everything he does is intended to hurt himself more. Seems weird. I thought I heard he was considering pleading guilty. You’re right. He has to be able to come out and say clearly that the idea completely sickens him. Admitting he showered with children was an admission of guilt to me.

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  24. mb21

    [quote name=Rodrigo]I still love Ron’s Brant Brown call. One of my personal faves.[/quote]That’s the one I’m going to remember my entire life.

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  25. Rice Cube

    [quote name=mb21]That’s the one I’m going to remember my entire life.[/quote]Was that the “OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO” one?

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  26. GBTS

    [quote name=mb21]That’s what I figured, but they just had a reporter on CNN (the one who supposedly broke the story) and she said she had talked to some attorneys and they said they had to get Sandusky out there to tell his side.
    [/quote]And you do that in a controlled forum that actually humanizes him, and you sure as fuck prep him on how to respond. Instead, Lionel Hutz had his client make a faceless, impromptu appearance on national television and proceeded to creep the fuck out of America for 8 continuous minutes.

    What a disaster.

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  27. GBTS

    If Sandusky’s attorney spoke some African dialect fluently and I was charged with capital murder where it was spoken, I’d still defend myself instead of call him.

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  28. mb21

    [quote name=Recalcitrant Blogger Nate]I seriously think the dude should be put on suicide watch, because it seems like everything he does is intended to hurt himself more. Seems weird. I thought I heard he was considering pleading guilty. You’re right. He has to be able to come out and say clearly that the idea completely sickens him. Admitting he showered with children was an admission of guilt to me.[/quote]It was an admission of guilt in the sense of public opinion. It wouldn’t qualify as one in a court. Whatever tiny amount of doubt I had before that Costas interview was gone after I watched it. A person who isn’t sexually attracted to children would, I think, be revolted if they were asked that question. It would be an emphatic no. There’d be no Clinton-esque search for some definition. It would be no. Simply no. Maybe you look at the person with this dumbfounded look and then say no, but the answer is no. Period.

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  29. mb21

    [quote name=GBTS]And you do that in a controlled forum that actually humanizes him, and you sure as fuck prep him on how to respond. Instead, Lionel Hutz had his client make a faceless, impromptu appearance on national television and proceeded to creep the fuck out of America for 8 continuous minutes.

    What a disaster.[/quote]Have you seen the recent interview? Sandusky is admitting that he’s attracted to young boys and girls and after about 10 seconds of this you can hear his attorney telling him to say he’s not sexually attracted to them.

    Is it possible that Sandusky is mentally challenged? Seriously.

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  30. mb21

    [quote name=GBTS]If Sandusky’s attorney spoke some African dialect fluently and I was charged with capital murder where it was spoken, I’d still defend myself instead of call him.[/quote]I wish my grandfather was still alive. He practiced law for 60 years (many as a judge). I’d love to hear his harsh words for this moron.

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  31. Rodrigo

    [quote name=Suburban kid]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg3zJYny5vE[/quote]
    “What is wrong with this man?!?!”.

    (dying laughing)
    (dying laughing)
    (dying laughing)

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  32. binky

    [quote name=mb21]Have you seen the recent interview? Sandusky is admitting that he’s attracted to young boys and girls and after about 10 seconds of this you can hear his attorney telling him to say he’s not sexually attracted to them.

    Is it possible that Sandusky is mentally challenged? Seriously.[/quote]I mean, to be fair, that’s not an admission of guilt. I have seen girls that were probably underage and felt attraction. Feeling something and acting on the feeling are two different things. It’s not a crime to be sexually attracted to young people. It’s a crime to act on it.

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  33. GW

    [quote name=mb21]Sandusky can’t even say he’s not sexually attracted to young kids without his fucking attorney informing him that he should say it. Unreal.[/quote]

    He’s a stand-up guy.

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  34. Rice Cube

    [quote name=Suburban kid]”That’s a TOOTBLAN waiting to happen right there.”

    (dying laughing)
    (dying laughing)
    (dying laughing)[/quote]
    /truth’d

    Is this your final product? It was well-done regardless. Many kudos.

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  35. Suburban kid

    [quote name=Rice Cube]/truth’d

    Is this your final product? It was well-done regardless. Many kudos.[/quote](dying laughing) I wouldn’t be waiting for a cleaner edit if I were you.

    Next up, the long-ago promised mashup of Ron and Public Enemy. Once I gather enough Ron samples.

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  36. Rice Cube

    [quote name=Suburban kid](dying laughing) I wouldn’t be waiting for a cleaner edit if I were you.

    Next up, the long-ago promised mashup of Ron and Public Enemy. Once I gather enough Ron samples.[/quote]I can’t wait.

    For the latter thing, the former is very cool anyway (dying laughing)

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  37. Berselius

    [quote name=josh]I mean, to be fair, that’s not an admission of guilt. I have seen girls that were probably underage and felt attraction. Feeling something and acting on the feeling are two different things. It’s not a crime to be sexually attracted to young people. It’s a crime to act on it.[/quote]
    True, but it’s still really fucking dumb to say when you’re on trial for sexually assaulting multiple kids. If I were on trial for murdering someone, I wouldn’t be blabbing to the media about how I really wanted to stab the victim in the face.

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  38. binky

    [quote name=Berselius]True, but it’s still really fucking dumb to say when you’re on trial for sexually assaulting multiple kids. If I were on trial for murdering someone, I wouldn’t be blabbing to the media about how I really wanted to stab the victim in the face.[/quote]Right, but to play Devil’s Advocate for a moment, if there were witnesses who could say that you mentioned several times wanting to stab dude in the face, then you don’t benefit yourself saying you never wanted to do it. You might be better of being honest. Let’s say Sandusky is innocent, and that what one dude saw was just a case of REALLY UNFORTUNATE misinterpretation. Eye witness accounts are often unreliable and subject to change over time. So let’s say he is mildly sexually attracted to boys but never acted on it in any way that is illegal, but instead is guilty of occasionally horsing around, as he said, probably more than is strictly a good idea. Given those facts, perhaps he’s trying to be honest and admit, yes, he’s attracted to them, but that he didn’t act on it. I mean, I think the main vibe I’ve gotten from the threads you guys have posted is that the man is clearly guilty and should be lynched (okay, only MO actually suggested lynching in my memory). I mean, we still have a system. We still have a burden of proof. Eye witness accounts aren’t proof. Accusation isn’t tantamount to guilt.

    Off my high horse.

    Sorry, I am currently TIPSY on WHISKEY.

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  39. mb21

    [quote name=josh]I mean, to be fair, that’s not an admission of guilt. I have seen girls that were probably underage and felt attraction. Feeling something and acting on the feeling are two different things. It’s not a crime to be sexually attracted to young people. It’s a crime to act on it.[/quote]I’m assuming whatever you felt you quickly realized how wrong it was. Maybe you can’t stop the way you feel, but you understood it was wrong. That’s the problem here. While talking about this it never occurred to him without his attorney telling him that this is wrong. It’s also one thing to find yourself on a rare occasion attracted to someone you shouldn’t be as opposed to someone like Sandusky being attracted to many young boys and girls.

    Like berselius said, if you’re going on trial for this there is only answer.

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  40. binky

    [quote name=mb21]I’m assuming whatever you felt you quickly realized how wrong it was. Maybe you can’t stop the way you feel, but you understood it was wrong. That’s the problem here. While talking about this it never occurred to him without his attorney telling him that this is wrong. It’s also one thing to find yourself on a rare occasion attracted to someone you shouldn’t be as opposed to someone like Sandusky being attracted to many young boys and girls.

    Like berselius said, if you’re going on trial for this there is only answer.[/quote]You can’t control who you’re attracted to. You can train yourself with time, but a person’s gut (or other body part) reaction and their behavior are two different issues. A person can have a feeling AND know it’s improper, and not act on it. Should he lie? What happens if he’s caught in the lie? Then we demonize. Once you’re accused of something like this, actual guilt and innocence go right out the window in the minds of every single person. You’re simply guilty. I find that unfortunate.

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  41. mb21

    Sandusky deserves a fair trial and I’m glad we have a system that will provide that for him. Even if we can somehow say he’s not guilty, he still has serious fucking problems and should never be allowed anywhere near a child. If that man came up to one of my children I’m quite certain I would beat the man to death and I’m not a violent person. I’ve never been in a fight with anyone other than my brother. He shouldn’t be around any child ever. Not in a supermarket. Not on a street. Not anywhere anytime. Ever.

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  42. Rice Cube

    [quote name=josh]You can’t control who you’re attracted to. You can train yourself with time, but a person’s gut (or other body part) reaction and their behavior are two different issues. A person can have a feeling AND know it’s improper, and not act on it. Should he lie? What happens if he’s caught in the lie? Then we demonize. Once you’re accused of something like this, actual guilt and innocence go right out the window in the minds of every single person. You’re simply guilty. I find that unfortunate.[/quote]
    I think it’s unfortunate only if he didn’t actually fuck a kid in the ass.

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  43. binky

    [quote name=Rice Cube]I think it’s unfortunate only if he didn’t actually fuck a kid in the ass.[/quote]My point is that you’re presupposing he did.

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  44. Rice Cube

    [quote name=josh]My point is that you’re presupposing he did.[/quote]I think you have a good point, I apologize if that was a bit too forward. This whole story makes me sad.

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  45. binky

    [quote name=mb21]Sandusky deserves a fair trial and I’m glad we have a system that will provide that for him. Even if we can somehow say he’s not guilty, he still has serious fucking problems and should never be allowed anywhere near a child. If that man came up to one of my children I’m quite certain I would beat the man to death and I’m not a violent person. I’ve never been in a fight with anyone other than my brother. He shouldn’t be around any child ever. Not in a supermarket. Not on a street. Not anywhere anytime. Ever.[/quote]But what are you basing this on? Perhaps you feel he acted inappropriately even in the things he has admitted to doing. My point is just that you’re assuming guilt. If the tables are turned and you get accused of something you didn’t feel you did, how do you react?

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  46. binky

    I’m not trying to piss anyone off. I wouldn’t have said anything if not for the booze. When the talk turns to murdering people for crimes they get accused of, I can’t help but think of people like my brother, who was demonized and hounded and made to feel like he shouldn’t exist for making a mistake. I can’t help but get defensive and put in in the accused shoes. Sometimes things just look really shitty from the outside. I don’t care. Hack away. Hate me if you want.

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  47. mb21

    Nobody is going to hate you for saying what you think, Josh. I think some people disagree and I’m one of them, but I respect your opinion.

    [quote name=josh]But what are you basing this on? Perhaps you feel he acted inappropriately even in the things he has admitted to doing. My point is just that you’re assuming guilt. If the tables are turned and you get accused of something you didn’t feel you did, how do you react?[/quote]I’m basing it on what he’s acknowledged. Old men don’t shower and horse around with young children when naked. If the old man is his father, OK, I may not be comfortable with that, but Sandusky was not the father. He’s admitted to some touching. He’s admitted to being attracted to young boys and girls. Since he’s touched, he is also sexually attracted to them. Why else would you touch? Maybe the attraction is something he can’t control, but it’s still pedophilia. I want him not being around children ever again based on what he’s admitted to. We commit people to hospitals all the time against their will. The same thing needs to happen here.

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  48. Rice Cube

    I don’t hate you. I think you have a good point if the evidence is circumstantial.

    In this case it seems the evidence is very strong and I’m actually wondering how the guy can get a fair trial because it’ll be difficult to find twelve people who don’t hate him.

    Sorry about your brother.

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  49. GW

    [quote name=mb21]I’m assuming whatever you felt you quickly realized she had a man face. Maybe you can’t stop the way you feel, but you understood it was wrong. That’s the problem here. While talking about this it never occurred to him without his attorney telling him that this is wrong. It’s also one thing to find yourself on a rare occasion attracted to someone you shouldn’t be as opposed to someone like Sandusky being attracted to many young boys and girls.
    [/quote]
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  50. mb21

    If the tables are turned and you get accused of something you didn’t feel you did, how do you react?

    Most of the time people are accused of something they are guilty of doing it. I’ve been accused of a lot of things in my life. Some of them I didn’t think I did. That was especially true when I was an addict, but I did almost everything I was accused of doing. And then some.

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  51. mb21

    [quote name=Rice Cube]I don’t hate you. I think you have a good point if the evidence is circumstantial.

    In this case it seems the evidence is very strong and I’m actually wondering how the guy can get a fair trial because it’ll be difficult to find twelve people who don’t hate him.

    Sorry about your brother.[/quote]My guess is he’ll get a fair trial and I also guess he’s be found not guilty. His attorney may be shit, but Sandusky and PSU have money. They both have the same interest in Sandusky not being guilty of these crimes. The money won’t be a problem and I’m sure these victims will be easy to discredit. McQueary will be easy to discredit.

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  52. Rice Cube

    Sorry to derail the conversation, but who were the guys on the committee and which of them would be most likely to support Santo?

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  53. fang2415

    I don’t want to spend too long on this because frankly the PSU stuff bores me… But something that gets occasional discussion in the UK is to protect the identities of people accused of rape or other sex crimes until they’re found guilty, the idea being that an accusation can be almost as damaging as a conviction in spite of the fact that people are supposed to be considered innocent until proven guilty (see Strauss-Kahn, Dominique).

    It hasn’t happened yet, but there have been some pretty compelling statements made by people who had their lives ruined by having a court publicly confirm that they were innocent of rape, and I could see the UK law eventually changing to prevent that.

    Has anyone ever heard that type of argument made in the US?

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  54. mb21

    I’ve heard of the argument, but I don’t think it’s gained a movement or anything. Those accused of murder who are innocent also have their lives ruined so I almost think you’d have to keep secret the identity of any person charged with a serious crime. I don’t think that would have much or any support here.

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  55. fang2415

    [quote name=mb21]I’ve heard of the argument, but I don’t think it’s gained a movement or anything. Those accused of murder who are innocent also have their lives ruined so I almost think you’d have to keep secret the identity of any person charged with a serious crime. I don’t think that would have much or any support here.[/quote]Yeah, the perp walk does do a lot of damage to the presumption of innocence no matter what. But sex crimes tend to be in a different league as far as the court of public opinion goes.

    I think there are some countries where no accused criminal can have their identity revealed until they’re found guilty; I have to admit I have a hard time coming up with an argument against that, unless you just throw out due process and the presumption of innocence altogether. The way things are done now, especially with sex crimes, can sometimes have the uncomfortable feel of a lynching.

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  56. fang2415

    [quote name=mb21]I’ve heard of the argument, but I don’t think it’s gained a movement or anything. Those accused of murder who are innocent also have their lives ruined so I almost think you’d have to keep secret the identity of any person charged with a serious crime. I don’t think that would have much or any support here.[/quote]Incidentally, it’s not exactly a movement here either, but they do take individual liberty quite seriously in the UK, and I know that there has at least been a few high-profile parliamentary debates around the issue.

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  57. fang2415

    I should also point out that none of this means that Sandusky and his lawyer aren’t idiots, or that he won’t be found guilty, or that they shouldn’t throw the book at him if he is. But I see where Josh is coming from on this (if not on the Kim DeJesus thing). As long as they keep him where he can’t do anybody any harm, and as long as he and his victims get a truly fair day in court, why not leave the guy alone until he’s actually proven guilty? Then go to town.

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  58. GBTS

    [quote name=fang2415]As long as they keep him where he can’t do anybody any harm, and as long as he and his victims get a truly fair day in court, why not leave the guy alone until he’s actually proven guilty? Then go to town.[/quote]It’s a broken record at this point, but it’s the nature of the crimes. What he’s accused of is abhorrent. If this were over fudged tax returns nobody would care until trial.

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  59. Rice Cube

    [quote name=GBTS]It’s a broken record at this point, but it’s the nature of the crimes. What he’s accused of is abhorrent. If this were over fudged tax returns nobody would care until trial.[/quote]
    The anger re: steroids/PEDs is somewhere in between.

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  60. GBTS

    [quote name=Rice Cube]The anger re: steroids/PEDs is somewhere in between.[/quote]Pedophilia > Steroids > Murder > Crack/marijuana > Cocaine > Domestic abuse > Knowingly tanking the global economy

    End of political discussion ——> Now

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  61. fang2415

    [quote name=GBTS]It’s a broken record at this point, but it’s the nature of the crimes. What he’s accused of is abhorrent. If this were over fudged tax returns nobody would care until trial.[/quote]Well, sure. But that just means that in case you’re innocent of a crime, you better hope you get falsely accused of tax fraud (or how about securities fraud?) rather than rape.

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  62. mb21

    [quote name=GBTS]Pedophilia > Steroids > Murder > Crack/marijuana > Cocaine > Domestic abuse > Knowingly tanking the global economy

    End of political discussion ——> Now[/quote]I’ve always thought the difference in public opinion between crack and cocaine was interesting. More interesting to me is that if I was to tell a random person that I was a crack addict I’d get a disgusted look. If I told another random person I was addicted to cocaine there would be more sympathy in the look I got.

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  63. mb21

    Oh, by the way, I’ve told some people I didn’t feel like getting into a discussion with that I was a cocaine addict rather than telling them I’m a crack addict. I don’t care what people think about it, but sometimes I think it makes people more uncomfortable if they think you’re a crack addict and I don’t want that. I also don’t want to hang around such people very much either so whatever.

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  64. mb21

    “All I know how to do is I know how to beat [the Red Sox],” Garza said. “That’s all I did. I know how to beat them. I liked the teams I faced there.”

    (dying laughing)

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  65. AndCounting

    [quote name=GBTS]When is MSU going to jump a route? These balls are going across the field in the air for like five seconds.[/quote]It’s like Tecmo Bowl when the passes stay in the air forever and you see the defender’s arrow at the complete wrong end of the screen.

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  66. GBTS

    [quote name=mb21]Not sure that’s a catch[/quote]What an awful call by the ref. That wasn’t even close.

    Calling it a catch in the first place, I mean.

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  67. AndCounting

    I’m surprised they called it one on the field. It looked closer in slo-mo than it did in real time. I didn’t think there was any way they would say he came down with that.

    And he looked like he jumped off a trampoline to catch that ball.

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  68. Rice Cube

    [quote name=GBTS](dying laughing)

    That water boy looked exactly like Berselius.[/quote]Was he delivering some high quality H-2-O?

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  69. mb21

    In real time I thought the guy was like 8 yards out of bounds. I don’t think it was a terrible call by the ref like GBTS. That’s one of those plays that’s going to result in a lot of incorrect calls and it’s a good thing we have instant replay these days. The ref can’t possibly look to see if the receiver has possession and is in bounds on that play. So he has to look for one thing

    Unbelievable

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  70. GBTS

    Gus Johnson is a fucking child. That was a penalty clear as day, and he’s moaning like a 5 year old because he wants to be able to scream during overtime.

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  71. mb21

    [quote name=GBTS]Gus Johnson is a fucking child. That was a penalty clear as day, and he’s moaning like a 5 year old because he wants to be able to scream during overtime.[/quote]Agreed.

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  72. GBTS

    [quote name=mb21]The ref can’t possibly look to see if the receiver has possession and is in bounds on that play. So he has to look for one thing
    [/quote]Oh I agree, I just thought it was obvious he was neither. (dying laughing)

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  73. Berselius

    [quote name=AndCounting]Berselius has to be lovinghating this.[/quote](dying laughing). My Internet crapped out about 10 minutes before wisconsin’s last TD. Had to catch the rest of the game on my phone. Fun times.

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  74. Mercurial Outfielder

    [quote name=GBTS]Gus Johnson is a fucking child. That was a penalty clear as day, and he’s moaning like a 5 year old because he wants to be able to scream during overtime.[/quote]HA HA!

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