I knew that today’s first game is a makeup game, but I was wondering how that worked out. The “typical” schedule, at least as I have always assumed it, was more or less that each team played a home and away series against the teams not in their division over the course of the season. The rest are filled in by the interleague matchups and playing your own division. But I guess this whole interleague thing throws a wrench in all that. Some NL teams have to play each other during big interleague periods. If I were less lazy I’d look and see how often it is the Cubs who end up with the extra game. My lying brain tells me that it’s more often than it should be.
Team Stats
As always, overall team stats and NL ranks:
| Giants | Cubs | |
| wOBA | .292 (15th) | .320 (6th) |
| UBR | 3.4 (3rd) | -8.9 (16th) |
| UZR | 5.4 (4th) | -15.4 (15th) |
| SP FIP | 3.14 (2nd) | 4.17 (14th) |
| RP FIP | 2.94 (3rd) | 4.07 (14th) |
Obviously, pitching is the Giants trump suit and they have seven pitchers with FIP below three, including starters Madison Bumgarner, Timmay, and the out-of-nowhere-revitalized Ryan Vogelsong. Offensively, well, there are problems. No batters have double-digit wRAA, and Miguel Tejada has been an absoulte black hole of suck in their lineup. Oddly enough their lineup has fewer truly awful hitting performances on it other than Tejada, just a bunch of bad ones. I was expecting to see something like we saw with the Brewers and the White Sox, where multiple hitters are absolutely killing the lineup.
Pitching Matchups
Tuesday: Ryan Vogelsong, RHP (1.86, 2.88, 3.39, 4.44) vs Doug Davis, LHP (5.01, 3.48, 4.47, 4.05), 1:20 PM CT (game one)
Ryan Vogelsong – Ryan Dempster 2.0? Since coming to the Giants he’s shaved a walk and a half per nine off his career rate, upped his strikeouts, and upped his ground balls. Who knew? Apparently not the Pirates. Those numbers won’t last and he’s 33, so it’s not like he’s suddenly hitting his peak or something. Dempster had his breakout season when he was thirty, but sample size of one and all that.
I’m flooed that Davis has a decent xFIP of 4.47 when he has a 5.01 BB.9 rate. WTF?
Tuesday: Barry Zito, LHP (6.23, 4.87, 5.28, 4.09) vs Rodrigo Lopez, RHP (6.59, 5.80, 4.71, 4.95), 7:05 PM CT (game two)
If you ignore Vogelsong’s numbers from this season and just look at these guys projections, how laughable is it that the best pitcher in a doubleheader involving these two supposedly pitching-heavy teams is Doug Davis? I’d laugh that the Cubs are resorting to throwing Davis and Lopez in a doubleheader, but when they’re matched up with The Decaying Corpse of Barry Zito’s Career and a failed top prospect with the career 5.11 ERA / 4.53 FIP it doesn’t look as bad. Random laugh: Zito’s twitter handle is BakedZito
Wednesday: Tim Lincecum, RHP (3.16, 2.83, 2.88, 2.52) vs Ryan Dempster, RHP (5.31, 4.15, 3.39, 3.70), 7:05 PM CT
What else is there to say about Lincecum that hasn’t been said? We’ll watch an excellently pitched game tomorrow night.
Demp was knocked around by the Royals in his last start and gave up a ton of line drives and fly balls. Luckily it was the Royals who were trying to out-Cub the Cubs, and they only picked up four runs (some helped by the defense behind Demp).
Thursday: Derrek Lee, RHP (3.22, 3.06, 3.58, 3.33) vs Carlos Zambrano, RHP (4.38, 3.83, 4.14, 3.65), 1:20 PM CT
Glancing at Cain’s numbers, I was surprised to see that he has a career .266 BABIP and wondered how the heck that was sustainable. But it’s easily explained when you look at his career GB/FB rates. He is an extreme flyball pitcher who is helped by an extreme pitchers’ park. His career HR/FB rate is 6.9% but it’s not just Pac Bell or whatever the heck they’re calling that park now. His home HR/FB is 6.7% and his road is 7.1%
Z put together another strong outing in his last start, going seven innings and surrendering two runs. He only struck out two batters, but I’m encouraged by the number of ground balls he managed to generate in his recent starts.
Prediction
Cubs and Giants split this series. Given how the two teams match up in general I would guess that there wouldn’t be more than 20 runs scored between them, but anything can happen in the double-header today. It wouldn’t surprise me to see Zito and Lopez each take no-hitters into the 8th inning. Or both exit by the 5th with a score of 8-7 (dying laughing)
Comments
That’s quite a story.
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
Doug Davis, Yankee killer. Too bad we’re not playing the Yankees again.
AndCountingQuote Reply
I’m hoping for a Giants sweep and he Cubs score less than 20 (the latter is more probablye). Then, I win a shirt.
MishQuote Reply
KG
Matt Szczur, OF, Cubs (Low-A Peoria): 3-for-6, 2B, R, RBI, K. .322/.374/.451 line in 55 games is impressive, but needs to move up a level (or two) and prove it’s for real.
MishQuote Reply
Derrek Lee (dying laughing)
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Mish]impressive, but needs to move up a level (or two) and prove it’s for real.[/quote]
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
Just to show you that I still care about this piece of shit site…
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
Colin’s reaction to the whole Grantland thing (free):
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=14385
MishQuote Reply
Quade —-> All Star game
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/06/28/mike-quade-replaces-jim-riggleman-as-nl-all-star-coach
MishQuote Reply
Looks like we’re getting *that* Dougie today.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Mish]Colin’s reaction to the whole Grantland thing (free):
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=14385%5B/quote%5DIf I bothered to read that article I’d probably know what all the fuss is about this Grantland thing.
Don’t care though. (dying laughing)
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Mish]KG
Matt Szczur, OF, Cubs (Low-A Peoria): 3-for-6, 2B, R, RBI, K. .322/.374/.451 line in 55 games is impressive, but needs to move up a level (or two) and prove it’s for real.[/quote]
[/quote]
[quote name=Jame Gumb]
I don’t care what any of you say, this is the joke of the week.
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
Fukudome
Campana (dying laughing)
Castro
Ramirez
Pena
Soriano
DeWitt (dying laughing)
Hill (dying laughing)
Davis (dying laughing)
Score is already 3-0 in the 1st (dying laughing)
jtsunamiQuote Reply
[quote name=jtsunami]Fukudome
Campana (dying laughing)
Castro
Ramirez
Pena
Soriano
DeWitt (dying laughing)
Hill (dying laughing)
Davis (dying laughing)
Score is already 3-0 in the 1st (dying laughing)[/quote]What will it be in the 18th?
mb21Quote Reply
Giants leading 9-8 in the bottom of the 18th, giving me hope that I can win the OV shirt.
jtsunamiQuote Reply
You have 2 more wins?
mb21Quote Reply
A Doug Davis / Rodrigo Lopez doubleheader is the lowest point I can remember since 2006
dylanjQuote Reply
Regarding what Crane Kenney does, since he doesn’t do anything player related, wouldn’t he be in charge of most everything else?
Advertising, park improvements, pricing strategy, merchandise, etc.?
jtsunamiQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]You have 2 more wins?[/quote]1 more, but I need the Cubs to score a lot of runs. And it sure isn’t happening tomorrow or Thursday.
jtsunamiQuote Reply
[quote name=jtsunami]Regarding what Crane Kenney does, since he doesn’t do anything player related, wouldn’t he be in charge of most everything else?
Advertising, park improvements, pricing strategy, merchandise, etc.?[/quote]I don’t know. That would make sense, but team president is mostly just a title. From what I can tell, most of them don’t do anything notable.
mb21Quote Reply
Well if he’s in charge of pricing strategy, he should be fired (dying laughing)
jtsunamiQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I don’t know. That would make sense, but team president is mostly just a title. From what I can tell, most of them don’t do anything notable.[/quote]Maybe he’s in charge of schmoozing, like a university president.
binkyQuote Reply
Peenya’s been hitting the ball hard lately.
binkyQuote Reply
Pena angry.
jtsunamiQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]Maybe he’s in charge of schmoozing, like a university president.[/quote]Could be. Sure would be nice if one of the beat reporters endlessly complaining about him actually looked into it.
mb21Quote Reply
Koyie Hill!
mb21Quote Reply
Koyie!!!!
XoomwaffleQuote Reply
(dying laughing)
BerseliusQuote Reply
I think Koyie should be a macro like Juan Pierre
jtsunamiQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Koyie Hill![/quote]Who’s next? Tony? Dougie?
ACTQuote Reply
Just reading that Byrd got plunked in his first AB back.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=jtsunami]I think Koyie should be a macro like Juan (dying laughing)[/quote]
koyie = buzzsaw (or table saw or whatever kind of saw it was)
WaLiQuote Reply
Pablo likes doing the Dougie
jtsunamiQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]Who’s next? Tony? Dougie?[/quote]Campy is like a softball slap hitter. He might as well get a running start in the box.
jtsunamiQuote Reply
So, the Yanks do nothing against Dougie, but he gets beaten up by the Giants?
ACTQuote Reply
Damn you Pat the Bat.
jtsunamiQuote Reply
I think we have already seen the best Dougie has to offer this year.
binkyQuote Reply
Pat the Bat must have slept with Dougie’s wife.
http://deadspin.com/5682767/pat-burrell-hook+up-stories-are-plentiful-apocryphal-and-literally-full-of-shit
jtsunamiQuote Reply
I love that we might get our asskicked by a team leading off with Aaron Rowand and Miguel Tejada.
MishQuote Reply
Is that Campy’s first bunt single of the year?
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Mish]I love that we might get our asskicked by a team leading off with Aaron Rowand and Miguel Tejada.[/quote]The Cubs recently had Blake DeWitt batting 3rd so we can’t say they’re much better. (dying laughing)
mb21Quote Reply
No way Pena goes yard again.
jtsunamiQuote Reply
Aramis doesn’t strike out much, but he seems to pick the worst times to do it.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=jtsunami]No way Pena goes yard again.[/quote]Correct
MishQuote Reply
[quote name=jtsunami]No way Pena goes yard again.[/quote]correct
ACTQuote Reply
god damn it.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]god damn it.[/quote](dying laughing)
MishQuote Reply
Davis makes a great case for the DH.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]Davis makes a great case for the DH.[/quote]
He not only shouldn’t be allowed to hit, he shouldn’t be allowed to pitch either.
melissaQuote Reply
Love the new comment tag but for some reason it made that dreadful, “hey now, you’re an all-star, get your game on, let’s play,” song pop into my head. (dying laughing)
melissaQuote Reply
Dodgers had 25 hits yesterday. I could see the Giants doing that if they leave Dougie in.
binkyQuote Reply
Bob just mentioned that Koyie should go out to the mound to stall since Carpenter isn’t warmed up yet. It seems to be a problem for Quade to get guys up soon enough in the pen.
melissaQuote Reply
So who is this game and its score helping out most for the contest?
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=melissa]Bob just mentioned that Koyie should go out to the mound to stall since Carpenter isn’t warmed up yet. It seems to be a problem for Quade to get guys up soon enough in the pen.[/quote]OR get the right ones up.
mb21Quote Reply
Doesn’t Rowand have to take 3rd on that throw by Castro?
mb21Quote Reply
JUST. NEED. BYRD. BACK!
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=melissa]Bob just mentioned that Koyie should go out to the mound to stall since Carpenter isn’t warmed up yet. It seems to be a problem for Quade to get guys up soon enough in the pen.[/quote]
It doesn’t occur to Quade to get anyone up before the 7th inning or when the starter has given up double digit runs.
Aisle424Quote Reply
(dying laughing)
(dying laughing)
(dying laughing)
Cubs putting on a clinic on how to suck
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]It doesn’t occur to Quade to get anyone up before the 7th inning or when the starter has given up double digit runs.[/quote]
He told Doug Davis on May 17th that he was going to be in for 7 innings this game
BerseliusQuote Reply
I predicted the Cubs would allow 160 runs, so this is helping me, I think.
ACTQuote Reply
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius](dying laughing)
(dying laughing)
(dying laughing)
Cubs putting on a clinic on how to suck[/quote]1) be the Cubs.
/list
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]He told Doug Davis on May 17th that he was going to be in for 7 innings this game[/quote]
He might as well have left him in and saved his bullpen for the next ass-hammering.
melissaQuote Reply
Giving up double-digit runs to the Giants should count as 2 losses.
ACTQuote Reply
They just need to option the Chicago Cubs to Des Moines and call up the Tennessee Smokies.
mb21Quote Reply
Zonk: “Hit one out onto the street here… see what happens.”
I’m glad to see that is catching on.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]Zonk: “Hit one out onto the street here… see what happens.”
I’m glad to see that is catching on.[/quote]I expect we’ll see it on the banner of cubs.com before long.
mb21Quote Reply
Home run here and the Cubs are only another grand slam away. Let’s see what happens.
CormsQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]I expect we’ll see it on the banner of cubs.com before long.[/quote]
I’d rather see them change it to “It is what it is”
BerseliusQuote Reply
The Cubs could pick up the half game on Astros they lost yesterday if things go well tonight.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Corms]Home run here and the Cubs are only another grand slam away. Let’s see what happens.[/quote]I doubt it. I figure one of the runners passes another one. Grand slam for the Cubs equals 3 runs.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]I’d rather see them change it to “It is what it is, Dude “[/quote]
Dusty’d
melissaQuote Reply
You know what’s funny? Mike Quade might be the most deserving Cub to be on the all-star team. (dying laughing)
mb21Quote Reply
Soriano with the RBI walk. (dying laughing)
CormsQuote Reply
Brenly: one good pitch to hit in that sequence.
me: and Soriano almost struckout.
mb21Quote Reply
(dying laughing) that’s just a horrible call.
mb21Quote Reply
Soriano —-> walk
.829 OPS
He just may be tradeable.
jtsunamiQuote Reply
Blake DeWitt intimidates Bill Hall!
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=jtsunami]Soriano —-> walk
.829 OPS
He just may be tradeable.[/quote]It’s just a question of how much the Cubs have to pay. He’s tradeable.
mb21Quote Reply
Bill Hall trying to get the Cubs back in the game. That should have been his 2nd error of the inning
melissaQuote Reply
Brenly: Get guys on base an slowly creep back into this ballgame.
If anyone knows anything about creeps it’s Brenly.
CormsQuote Reply
I live my life as a spartan dreg.
Suburban kidQuote Reply
[quote name=Suburban kid]I live my life as a spartan dreg.[/quote]Cool story, bro. (dying laughing)
mb21Quote Reply
If anyone is watching on MLB gameday, you have to check out Chris Carpenter’s picture (dying laughing)
jtsunamiQuote Reply
Anyone else find it ironic that Carpenter is throwing to Three Finger Hill?
CormsQuote Reply
[quote name=jtsunami]If anyone is watching on MLB gameday, you have to check out Chris Carpenter’s picture (dying laughing)[/quote]This one?
mb21Quote Reply
Anyone else find it moronic that Carpenter is throwing to Three Finger Hill?
jtsunamiQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]This one?
jtsunamiQuote Reply
It’s like he can only control half of his face.
mb21Quote Reply
Brian Wilson is awesome. I’d hate to see him go to the Yankees because he’d have to shave his ridiculous beard.
mb21Quote Reply
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
Do you think they can get a relief pitcher here by the time Game 2 starts?
jtsunamiQuote Reply
Good thing Cuban didn’t buy this team.
/headdesk
/headdesk
/headdesk
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Jame Gumb]
[/quote]I FUCKING LOVE DR. RONALD CHEVALIER. Although that movie was a bit too much. (dying laughing)
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=jtsunami]Do you think they can get a relief pitcher here by the time Game 2 starts?[/quote]Where are the I-Cubs playing? If they called someone to Chicago from Des Moines at about 2 they could. Do they have to be on the team when the game starts?
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Good thing Cuban didn’t buy this team.
/headdesk
/headdesk
/headdesk[/quote]
Maybe he did. Is he the Executive Chairman?
BerseliusQuote Reply
(dying laughing) @ Dougie’s line: 4.1 IP, 12 H, 10 R, 3 BB, 3 K, 1 HR 99 pitches
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I FUCKING LOVE DR. RONALD CHEVALIER. Although that movie was a bit too much. (dying laughing)[/quote]
The gif is perfect for editing, though.
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]Maybe he did. Is he the Executive Chairman?[/quote]But who owns the Cubs?
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Jame Gumb]The gif is perfect for editing, though.[/quote]Oh, indeed.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Good thing Cuban didn’t buy this team.
/headdesk
/headdesk
/headdesk[/quote]
He’s all about himself, though.
See?
Wait…
Dr. Aneus TaintQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]But who owns the Cubs?[/quote]
Opposing batters
melissaQuote Reply
[quote name=melissa]Opposing batters[/quote](dying laughing)
MishQuote Reply
[quote name=melissa]Opposing batters[/quote]And pitchers.
CormsQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Where are the I-Cubs playing? If they called someone to Chicago from Des Moines at about 2 they could. Do they have to be on the team when the game starts?[/quote]They have to be on the roster when the game starts, but they don’t have to be present. The I-Cubs played a home day game today against Albuquerque.
CormsQuote Reply
[quote name=Corms]They have to be on the roster when the game starts, but they don’t have to be present. The I-Cubs played a home day game today against Albuquerque.[/quote]Soriano may finally get his chance to try out relief pitching!
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]Soriano may finally get his chance to try out relief pitching![/quote]They can start Castro on the bullpen test.
CormsQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]Soriano may finally get his chance to try out relief pitching![/quote]
Maybe he can be the new hitting coach
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]Maybe he can be the new hitting coach[/quote]Let’s See What Happens
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Let’s See What Happens[/quote]
Or we could just reimagine the college of coaches, and have the players run the club democratically.
BerseliusQuote Reply
As dumb an idea as the college of coaches was, it does show that at that time the Cubs were ahead of other teams when it comes to forward thinking. They realized early that the value of the manager was marginal. Add that to the fact they were the first team to use a computer to evaluate player statistics and it’s truly shocking that team and this one are the same.
mb21Quote Reply
That depends on whether you think it was an acknowledgement of the marginal value of managers and not simply a marketing stunt for a shitty team. I’d lean towards the latter.
BerseliusQuote Reply
What kind of marketing value would a college of coaches have? Even if we put that aside, they were still the first MLB team to use a computer to evaluate player stats. Sadly, they’d be better off using that machine today than consulting Ari Kaplan.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]What kind of marketing value would a college of coaches have? Even if we put that aside, they were still the first MLB team to use a computer to evaluate player stats. Sadly, they’d be better off using that machine today than consulting Ari Kaplan.[/quote]
This was also the team that hired someone to put the evil eye on opposing pitchers.
BerseliusQuote Reply
Grabow is awesome.
ACTQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]This was also the team that hired someone to put the evil eye on opposing pitchers.[/quote]Never heard about that. What did they do?
mb21Quote Reply
Even though it was not a lot fo money, the contract the Drunken Gym Teacher on a Booze Cruise gave to Grabow might be the dumbest move he ever made.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=ACT]Grabow is awesome.[/quote]They should make him bat as punishment fort the homer to Tejada.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=josh]They should make him bat as punishment fort the homer to Tejada.[/quote]My bad, Gameday said Grabow was up first this inning.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Even though it was not a lot fo money, the contract the Drunken Gym Teacher on a Booze Cruise gave to Grabow might be the dumbest move he ever made.[/quote]
Aaron Miles is right up there too. Not a lot of money but it shows a thought process that seriously doesn’t understand the market. Signing a guy who was non tendered to a multi year contract is simply retarded.
CormsQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]As dumb an idea as the college of coaches was, it does show that at that time the Cubs were ahead of other teams when it comes to forward thinking. They realized early that the value of the manager was marginal. Add that to the fact they were the first team to use a computer to evaluate player statistics and it’s truly shocking that team and this one are the same.[/quote]
I think it was born out of a desire to not pay a single manager’s salary. One could argue they recognized that a manager’s contribution doesn’t have the value of that added salary, but I think they were just cutting corners.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Never heard about that. What did they do?[/quote]
Veeck mentioned it in his (excellent) biography, though I know I’ve seen it in one or two other places. Here’s a summary from a Trib article
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2009-01-27/sports/0901260660_1_cubs-owner-wrigley-field-billy-goat-tavern-owner
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2009-01-27/sports/0901260660_1_cubs-owner-wrigley-field-billy-goat-tavern-owner[/quote]
Please don’t let Wally Hayward ever find that biography.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]I think it was born out of a desire to not pay a single manager’s salary. One could argue they recognized that a manager’s contribution doesn’t have the value of that added salary, but I think they were just cutting corners.[/quote]
I agree with this. I was unaware that the Cubs were the first team to use a computer, I always thought it was Earl Weaver in Baltimore, but that is probably the only time they’ve been ahead of the curve. Their current reluctance to use advanced analysis is right in line with their history of being one of the last teams to put together a farm system and also in being slow to integrate.
CormsQuote Reply
[quote name=Corms]I agree with this. I was unaware that the Cubs were the first team to use a computer, I always thought it was Earl Weaver in Baltimore, but that is probably the only time they’ve been ahead of the curve. Their current reluctance to use advanced analysis is right in line with their history of being one of the last teams to put together a farm system and also in being slow to integrate.[/quote]
Weren’t they the last to integrate? I feel like I heard they were.
Aisle424Quote Reply
(dying laughing) at the new comment submitted language.
Aisle424Quote Reply
Is someone casting an evil eye on the opponent any more ridiculous than having a Greek Priest sprinkle holy water in the dugout in an attempt to cast out curses? Superstition and stupidity have been long time traditions of the Cubs. (dying laughing)
melissaQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Even though it was not a lot fo money, the contract the Drunken Gym Teacher on a Booze Cruise gave to Grabow might be the dumbest move he ever made.[/quote]Come on. It pales in comparison to Soriano, Zambrano, Ramirez and probably several others. We’re only talking $7.5 million. Grabow could have gotten injured and never pitched and it wouldn’t have been as bad as any of those.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]Weren’t they the last to integrate? I feel like I heard they were.[/quote]
I don’t think they were last. IIRC they had a shot at Willie Mays and didn’t pursue him, but Banks was fairly early black MLB player.
BerseliusQuote Reply
It could be that the Cubs were one of those teams that had an unspoken quota though.
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Come on. It pales in comparison to Soriano, Zambrano, Ramirez and probably several others. We’re only talking $7.5 million. Grabow could have gotten injured and never pitched and it wouldn’t have been as bad as any of those.[/quote]That actually might have improved the situation.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]I don’t think they were last. IIRC they had a shot at Willie Mays and didn’t pursue him, but Banks was fairly early black MLB player.[/quote]Bosox according to Wikipedia. I totally believe that.
binkyQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Grabow could have gotten injured and never pitched and it wouldn’t have been as bad as any of those.[/quote]
Yes, unfortunately for the Cubs, he hasn’t gotten hurt bad enough and is pitching for them.
Bubba BiscuitQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]Weren’t they the last to integrate? I feel like I heard they were.[/quote]
They weren’t last, the Yankees, Red Sox, and Phillies all integrated much later, and I think the Cardinals and maybe one or two other teams were a year or two behind them, but they were slow. Banks and Gene Baker were the Cubs first black players and they didn’t join the Cubs till the end of the 1953 season almost seven full seasons after Jackie Robinson broke the color line.
CormsQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424](dying laughing) at the new comment submitted language.[/quote]He might be the most deserving Cub at the all-star game. (dying laughing)
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Corms]I agree with this. I was unaware that the Cubs were the first team to use a computer, I always thought it was Earl Weaver in Baltimore, but that is probably the only time they’ve been ahead of the curve. Their current reluctance to use advanced analysis is right in line with their history of being one of the last teams to put together a farm system and also in being slow to integrate.[/quote]Earl Weaver may have been, but I know the first front office to use a computer was the Cubs and I don’t believe any other team did for at least 3 or 4 years.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Corms]They weren’t last, the Yankees, Red Sox, and Phillies all integrated much later, and I think the Cardinals and maybe one or two other teams were a year or two behind them, but they were slow. Banks and Gene Baker were the Cubs first black players and they didn’t join the Cubs till the end of the 1953 season almost seven full seasons after Jackie Robinson broke the color line.[/quote]
Maybe the Cubs were just waiting until Buck O’Neil was employed by an MLB team.
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]He might be the most deserving Cub at the all-star game. (dying laughing)[/quote]
Is the rest of the team allowed to eat dinner over the All-Star break?
Bubba BiscuitQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Earl Weaver may have been, but I know the first front office to use a computer was the Cubs and I don’t believe any other team did for at least 3 or 4 years.[/quote]
Yeah, but they only used it for porn.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]Yeah, but they only used it for alien porn.[/quote]
this would explain things
BerseliusQuote Reply
Hendry would have had to give Grabow a 5 year deal with $50 million to be as bad as the Soriano deal ends up being. That’s kind of funny. It would have been a better deal for the Cubs to sign John Grabow to a deal worth $45 million than it was to sign Soriano to that contract. (dying laughing)
mb21Quote Reply
Probably a 2-year deal for $15 to $20 million for it to be as bad as the Zambrano contract ends up being. This is kind of fun. How much could the Cubs have signed John fucking Grabow to for it to be worse than some of their other deals? (dying laughing)
mb21Quote Reply
Aisle424Quote Reply
The Grabow deal is about as bad as the Ramirez deal.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV7ou6pl5wU[/quote]
PORN WAS WHY THE NET WAS BORN, PORN PORN PORN
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]The Grabow deal is about as bad as the Ramirez deal.[/quote]
Yes, but the Grabow deal was shitty from the moment he signed it. At least the others were understandable at the time.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]Yes, but the Grabow deal was shitty from the moment he signed it. At least the others were understandable at the time.[/quote]The Ramirez and Zambrano deals were good ones at the time, but the Soriano one was bad from the start. Not nearly as bad as it’s going to end up being, but they overpaid by about $20 million, which is the amount McDonough added to the contract to get him to sign.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]PORN WAS WHY THE NET WAS BORN, PORN PORN PORN[/quote]
BTW, that entire show is fucking hilarious if it is still running somewhere. I saw it in Vegas and no idea what it was, but the tickets were half-price. I was (dying laughing) the whole damn time.
Aisle424Quote Reply
Also, I have a hard time caring too much about $7.5 million over two years. For an organization that has a payroll as high as the Cubs, that’s pocket change.
Hendry has a terrible record signing relievers. I don’t think his record at signing other players is all that bad to be honest, but he should never be allowed to sign relievers.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]The Ramirez and Zambrano deals were good ones at the time, but the Soriano one was bad from the start. Not nearly as bad as it’s going to end up being, but they overpaid by about $20 million, which is the amount McDonough added to the contract to get him to sign.[/quote]
Which is why I don’t blame Hendry entirely for that one.
Aisle424Quote Reply
With a loss tonight the Cubs will be well on their way to getting swept and hopefully moving closer to the Astros.
mb21Quote Reply
Bernstein:
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]BTW, that entire show is fucking hilarious if it is still running somewhere. I saw it in Vegas and no idea what it was, but the tickets were half-price. I was (dying laughing) the whole damn time.[/quote]
I think there’s still a traveling production going around the US. That was a fucking hilarious show.
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]Bernstein:[/quote]
Hendry sweats donut glaze. Maybe Byrnes was just hungry
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]Which is why I don’t blame Hendry entirely for that one.[/quote]I think most of us agree with that, which is kind of interesting because if you take the Soriano contract away, the players signed by Hendry have actually produced more WAR than they were paid for. It’s pretty close as you’d expect after this many years. The obvious weakness for him is signing relievers, which is something that rarely works out for any team. It’s troubling he hasn’t figured that out yet.
mb21Quote Reply
Didn’t Byrnes fuck up the Diamondbacks organization or something?
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Didn’t Byrnes fuck up the Diamondbacks organization or something?[/quote]So maybe he’s looking to take it to the next level and lead a fucked up franchised to even greater levels of fucked upness.
CormsQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Didn’t Byrnes fuck up the Diamondbacks organization or something?[/quote]
I keep associating him with Eric Byrnes so I’m not sure (dying laughing)
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Corms]So maybe he’s looking to take it to the next level and lead a fucked up franchised to even greater levels of fucked upness.[/quote]
That is quite a challenge with the Cubs.
Aisle424Quote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]That is quite a challenge with the Cubs.[/quote]There’s not an executive in the world who doesn’t like a challenge.
CormsQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Come on. It pales in comparison to Soriano, Zambrano, Ramirez and probably several others. We’re only talking $7.5 million. Grabow could have gotten injured and never pitched and it wouldn’t have been as bad as any of those.[/quote]You’re equivocating. Those deals were definitely worse financially for the Cubs, but the Grabow contract was just dumb. As I said in my initial post, the amount of money is small and not at issue here. It wasn’t a destructively bad deal, but it was such a dumb baseball move. Soriano, Ramriez, et. al were paid for sustained success in past performances. Grabow was paid for one season of performing slightly above average in a specialist relief role. Giving out a contract on that basis is just monumentally stupid. Far stupider than even the Soriano deal.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Also, I have a hard time caring too much about $7.5 million over two years. For an organization that has a payroll as high as the Cubs, that’s pocket change.
Hendry has a terrible record signing relievers. I don’t think his record at signing other players is all that bad to be honest, but he should never be allowed to sign relievers.[/quote]Once again, this is an equivocation. I’m not complaining about the money. It’s a drop in the bucket, as I said in the initial post. What bothers me is the apparent reasoning behind the deal. The money is nothing. The backasswards thinking is troublesome.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
The only problem I really have with most of the other contracts Hendry has given out are all the damn NTC. Fucking Cruller Jim hands those things out like candy. (dying laughing)
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]The only problem I really have with most of the other contracts Hendry has given out are all the damn NTC. Fucking Cruller Jim hands those things out like candy. (dying laughing)[/quote]
Jim probably thinks a NTC means the player can’t asked to be traded to a competent baseball team with 30 year old facilities.
Silky JohnsonQuote Reply
[quote name=Aisle424]That is quite a challenge with the Cubs.[/quote]
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]You’re equivocating. Those deals were definitely worse financially for the Cubs, but the Grabow contract was just dumb. As I said in my initial post, the amount of money is small and not at issue here. It wasn’t a destructively bad deal, but it was such a dumb baseball move. Soriano, Ramriez, et. al were paid for sustained success in past performances. Grabow was paid for one season of performing slightly above average in a specialist relief role. Giving out a contract on that basis is just monumentally stupid. Far stupider than even the Soriano deal.[/quote]
What are you talking about MO? MB’s point is that good or bad the Grabow signing doesn’t matter nearly as much as those big contracts because they’re not expecting more than a win or two’s worth of performance.
BerseliusQuote Reply
It’s like complaining that someone did a shitty job buying a bicycle when he has a bunch of Pintos in his garage.
BerseliusQuote Reply
Here’s Cameron the day the Grabow deal was announced:
At least with the Z, Ramriez, and Soriano deals, the Cubs got some return on their investment. They get nothing from Grabow, and nothing in his numbers indicated they would.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Corms]So maybe he’s looking to take it to the next level and lead a fucked up franchised to even greater levels of fucked upness.[/quote]
Either that or he figures his path back to the big leagues is to be the GM of a AAA team for awhile.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]What are you talking about MO? MB’s point is that good or bad the Grabow signing doesn’t matter nearly as much as those big contracts because they’re not expecting more than a win or two’s worth of performance.[/quote]Grabow’s never even been worth 1 WAR in a single season in his career. He’s a LOOGY. If the Cubs expected 1-2 WAR from him, this really was the dumbest deal ever. (dying laughing)
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Agreed. I didn’t know we were talking about anything else. All I know is that as far as bad contracts go, Grabow’s isn’t close to as bad as Soriano’s and is still better than Z’s will end up being.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Grabow’s never even been worth 1 WAR in a single season in his career. He’s a LOOGY. If the Cubs expected 1-2 WAR from him, this really was the dumbest deal ever. (dying laughing)[/quote]
$7.5 million over two years is roughly 1.5 WAR
BerseliusQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]It’s like complaining that someone did a shitty job buying a bicycle when he has a bunch of Pintos in his garage.[/quote]No, it’s like complaining that a guy who has a penchant for overpaying for older luxury cars decided to start overpaying for Yugos as well.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]The only problem I really have with most of the other contracts Hendry has given out are all the damn NTC. Fucking Cruller Jim hands those things out like candy. (dying laughing)[/quote]I don’t have a problem with those. It’s not like those NTC didn’t come for a price. Whoever got one, gave up money to get it.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]$7.5 million over two years is roughly 1.5 WAR[/quote]Grabow’s only been worth 1.1 WAR over his entire career.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Agreed. I didn’t know we were talking about anything else. All I know is that as far as bad contracts go, Grabow’s isn’t close to as bad as Soriano’s and is still better than Z’s will end up being.[/quote]Yeah, that Soriano deal is the definition of an albatross. But I think any intelligent person knew that deal stunk the day it was signed.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Yeah, that Soriano deal is the definition of an albatross. But I think any intelligent person knew that deal stunk the day it was signed.[/quote]and would still have never guessed how much worse it’s turned out, even with a reasonable baseline for his decline.
BerseliusQuote Reply
According to Fangraphs value tables, Grabow’s been worth $1.7 mil as a Cub.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Berselius]and would still have never guessed how much worse it’s turned out, even with a reasonable baseline for his decline.[/quote]Yeah once those leg injuries hit, that contract become horrific. But at elast there isn’t money deferred at interest, like the Beltran deal. I laugh every time I go to Cot’s and see that thing.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Yeah once those leg injuries hit, that contract become horrific. But at elast there isn’t money deferred at interest, like the Beltran deal. I laugh every time I go to Cot’s and see that thing.[/quote]
Not as funny as the Mets deal with Bobby Bonilla (dying laughing). That one could be more or less even when you factor in inflation but it’s still funny to see.
BerseliusQuote Reply
For those who haven’t seen it, Beltran’s deal:
Ye gods. (dying laughing)
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Had to see the new comment message.
Best loss I’ve ever attended.
Rice CubeQuote Reply
[quote name=Rice Cube]Had to see the new comment message.
Best loss I’ve ever attended.[/quote]Any guesses on attendance? Place full or back to half-empty?
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
Miles says Byrd was 2-4 with a 3-run dong today.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Grabow’s never even been worth 1 WAR in a single season in his career. He’s a LOOGY. If the Cubs expected 1-2 WAR from him, this really was the dumbest deal ever. (dying laughing)[/quote]How is that dumber than expecting about 22 to 25 WAR from Soriano? Through the age of 30 (his season with the Nationals), he was worth 15 WAR.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Yeah, that Soriano deal is the definition of an albatross. But I think any intelligent person knew that deal stunk the day it was signed.[/quote]That doesn’t make it less bad than Grabow’s.
mb21Quote Reply
I’ll put it this way: if Grabow is in fact the worst contract Jim Hendry has given out in his now ten years as Cubs GM, he should be given a very long contract extension paying him several million per year. Something along the lines of 10 years and $40 million for a GM because he would be really, really fucking awesome if that was the worst contract he’s given out.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Miles says Byrd was 2-4 with a 3-run dong today.[/quote]He also got hit by a pitch in his first AB, didn’t he?
mb21Quote Reply
Where Hendry has been screwed the most by these bad contracts has been the economy. The contract we’re talking about we’re given out before the economy collapsed. A reasonable person expected the $WAR to continue to increase. It hasn’t. It’s been the same.
mb21Quote Reply
[quote name=mb21]How is that dumber than expecting about 22 to 25 WAR from Soriano? Through the age of 30 (his season with the Nationals), he was worth 15 WAR.[/quote]It’s at least as bad, but consider this, if you want to play the proportions game.
Grabow’s been paid ~3 mil during his time wit the Cubs. He’s been worth half that.
During Soriano’s time with the Cubs, he’s been paid ~$60 mil (JEEBUS). He’s been worth $63 mil.
Granted, the Soriano deal will, in the long run, be MUCH worse. But right now the Grabow contract, and when the Grabow decision was made, it was a dumber deal, but no way was it a worse deal.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]He also got hit by a pitch in his first AB, didn’t he?[/quote]Yesterday, yeah. Right in the back. Byrd said it might have been the best thing that could have happened. (dying laughing)
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
[quote name=mb21]Where Hendry has been screwed the most by these bad contracts has been the economy. The contract we’re talking about we’re given out before the economy collapsed. A reasonable person expected the $WAR to continue to increase. It hasn’t. It’s been the same.[/quote]Yeah, that’s certainly hurt, but I don’t think there’s a possible world where that Soriano deal is a good one. (dying laughing)
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
In 2009, Soriano was paid $14 MIL and was worth 400 K. Ouch.
Mercurial OutfielderQuote Reply
New game thread up: http://obstructedview.net/chicago-cubs/games/cubsgiants-dh-game-2-in-case-anyone-hasnt-cried-uncle.html
Aisle424Quote Reply
Using rWAR and defense that matches the fans scouting report, we get the following: Win value of 4 million in 2007 and 4.5 million since. Soriano has been worth $31.5 million so far. Let’s get rid of the negative WAR season because you can’t pay someone under $0. He’s now worth $35.6 million. Nobody with a .325 OBP has been worth $60 million or more.
mb21Quote Reply