Penn State Sex Scandal

MO posted this earlier: http://openchannel.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/11/09/8722765-feds-investigate-if-penn-state-officials-violated-us-law

A thread about it I’ve enjoyed by Tango: http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/child_rapists/

http://aeryssports.com/kitchen-sink/youve-got-legal-questions-about-penn-state-ive-got-answers/

[quote name=mb21]Good article by Julie[/quote]It really was. I think it’s good we can start this thread with the facts as we currently know them. To that end, for those that haven’t seen it, the Grand Jury Report (NIGHTMARE FUEL WARNING): http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/11/07/sandusky-grand-jury-report/

[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]It really was. I think it’s good we can start this thread with the facts as we currently know them.[/quote]Sandusky raped a baby elephant. (dying laughing)

Julie makes a really good point regarding Paterno and whether he could be tried for perjury. I think he could be and I hope they do. I’m not as convinced as she is that they won’t. He’s a legend, but the new administration is going to clean house. If that means selling Paterno out, they’ll do it. The new administration must care more about PSU’s future than their past.

I think we’ll learn more too, but I think even right now you have enough evidence to charge him with perjury (for the same reason as Schulz and Curly).

This was posted on The Book Blog: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error

I probably overstated what I have been saying most of the day. Doesn’t change the fact McQueary and Paterno and these guys are still stupid as fuck though. (dying laughing)

Joe Paterno ———–> unemployed

[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Still Twitter-only. Supposed to be a PC this evening according to SBN.[/quote]
Yeah, it isn’t officially official.

Chance this weekend’s PSU game isn’t postponed has to be in single digits right now

[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I really am at a loss to explain the behavior of these students.[/quote]The vibe I’m getting is that it’s similar to the Madison Halloween riots we had when I was an undergrad. Some bad apples for sure and a lot of people who are looking to soak in the atmosphere and let the situation happen to them.

Are you all ready for the biggest tragedy in all of this?

http://godhatesfags.com/schedule.html

Westboro Baptist Church is protesting this Saturday’s game.

That’s right, because of these Penn State fucks, I am on the same side of an issue as those sons of bitches. Granted, for extremely different reasons. But the same side nonetheless.

[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Rumors about that PSU’s seniors will refuse to suit for Saturday’s game out of protest. For Paterno. Not for the children who were raped.[/quote]If it really was for Paterno, they’d stay quiet about it.

[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]No, I think you were pretty spot-on. These fuckers are entirely morally bankrupted. Exhibit A:
[/quote]Absolutely. I have no problems saying that McQueary, Paterno and the others are pieces of shit. I’m not as confident as I was that I’d have rushed to the child to protect him. I’d like to think I would, but in that situation I don’t know and reading that wiki link made me think about it. What I do know is that the only way I’m not calling 911 is if I’m a police officer, I’m physically unable to do so or because I flat out murdered the guy.

[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Rumors about that PSU’s seniors will refuse to suit for Saturday’s game out of protest. For Paterno. Not for the children who were raped.[/quote]That game will be canceled. The new administration can’t be seen in this way. I expect they’ll eliminate themselves from being able to play in the Big Ten Championship, any bowl game this year and wouldn’t even be surprised if they just called it quits the rest of the year and maybe longer. I have no sympathy whatsoever for it, but that program is fucked. Iowa State will be a superior program over the next 50 years.

.[quote name=mb21]And how the fuck is McQuade still employed?[/quote]
I should object to this meme since my wife’s cousins are actually called McQuade. (dying laughing)

[quote name=mb21]I read about that shortly after they issued that release and for the first time in ever, I’m actually glad they’re going to picket some place. I just wish they didn’t have signs that said God Hates Fags and all that shit. Signs that say God Hates PSU are completely acceptable though. (dying laughing)[/quote]GOD HATES FAGS
PSU —> FAGS
QED
GOD HATES PSU

I like McCuey. (dying laughing)

[quote name=mb21]http://thatlawyerdude.blogspot.com/2011/11/strong-defense-of-joe-paterno-why.html?m=0

Should I even bother reading that shit?[/quote]
If you like mealymouthed slimeball lawyers, go for it.

Wish I could link specific comments from this Poznanski thread, but apparently can’t do that: http://joeposnanski.si.com/2011/11/06/darkness/

A couple of fantastic comments there. One by Scott Semer. Another by spmancuso. Fantastic stuff.

[quote name=mb21]You’re the one who could probably do it. I say go for it.[/quote]
(dying laughing), this is just a fictional bot. I have no idea how to make one, let alone have it differentiate between comments.

[quote name=Berselius](dying laughing), this is just a fictional bot. I have no idea how to make one, let alone have it differentiate between comments.[/quote]What good are you?

Anyone know what the Big Ten has to do to kick a university out? Guy in purple shirt told me it’s being kicked around.

[quote name=Urk]what a bunch of fuckheads. I think that some of them will, later in life, be very sorry about taking this particular stand. the rest of them will just keep on being fuckheads.

What they’re really doing is just acting out the same logic, the same script that kept all this covered up in the first place.[/quote]Exactly, Urk. This culture of permissiveness (and that, BTW, is something for which we can blame Paterno directly) is what allowed this to happen.

Nothing makes me laugh more than when one fan from another team tries to give comfort to another team’s fans: http://www.blackshoediaries.com/2011/11/8/2548533/words-of-encouragement-from-a-purdue-fan

We see this shit on SB Nation all the time. It makes laugh each time.

It was from one of the commenters on Poz’s article:

Joe,

As you work your way through this, please consider the context of the 1998/1999 incident and “retirement” of Jerry Sandusky. Why would a healthy, 56-year old football coach, who was regarded at that point as the best defensive coach in college football, suddenly retire? The party line, that Sandusky was upset when told he wouldn’t become the next head coach at Penn State, isn’t credible. If that was the sole reason that he quit, why didn’t he get another elite job? He certainly could have had his choice. And if he felt resentment toward Penn State, why stay close in State College, why keep returning to the locker room and football area?

It’s pretty easy to read between the lines here.

Joe Paterno knew in 1998 what Sandusky was. He (and only he would have the authority to do this) insisted that Sandusky finish out the year and “retire,” presumably in exchange for Paterno’s burying of the actual reason. Paterno insisted that Sandusky never return to coaching as a condition of covering up.

Given that backdrop, fast forward to Paterno’s shocking failure to react sufficiently to the rape allegation in 2002. In no way could that have been a surprise to him. He had to know that the GA account was true and that Sandusky was an ongoing threat to vulnerable boys.

And at that point, Joe Paterno basically did nothing. Was it out of an ongoing sense of loyalty to a close friend? Did Paterno want to avoid a scandal for Penn State? Or was Paterno looking out for his own self-interest – would such a scandal if made public threaten his own ability to continue to pursue the win records?

And now we’re treated to the horrific obfuscation from Paterno that even today, he feels fooled. A lie which you uncritically reprinted. Paterno knew what Sandusky was, more than ten years ago. And countless humans have had their lives ruined because of his shameful failure to act.

Given the 1998/1999 frame, there is simply no way that Paterno’s behavior in 2002 wasn’t grossly immoral and dishonorable.

Please don’t write a book about Paterno’s heroic and ethical pursuit of the wins record.

.

Can we get Willow to Jerry Sandusky’s house immediately?

Since I posted the above comment, I’ll post the other one I really liked:

Scott L. Semer
I don’t usually post on these blogs, particularly sports ones, as I don’t have much to add, but this article screams out for a response for several main reasons. First, I like Joe Posnanski’s writings, and will find it much more difficult to enjoy it after this post, and have a small hope that some of these blog posts will convince him to change his mind rather quickly. Second, and more important, as a figure of some “authority” himself, Mr. Posnanski’s article does a great disservice to the victims of this particular story, as well as well as all the readers of this story who were themselves victims of a similar offense in their youth.

To be brief, there are three critical points here. First, “legal” evaluation of guilt or innocence (full disclosure, I’m a lawyer and a law professor) is not the same as moral evaluation of whether Joe Paterno acted correctly. Second, Joe Posnanski specifically chose to write about this subject. And what is critical is what he refuses to do or say. Third, is the clear conflict of interest Joe Posnanski has about this case, which demonstrates why this situation was allowed to get to the terrible point it did before authorities were finally about to prevent more children from being victimized.

As to the first point, as Michael Rosenberg on Sports Illustrated points out nicely, the simple moral question is did Joe Paterno do what most of us agree a decent person should have done (even if we might not live up to that ideal all the time)? The clear, easy answer is an emphatic no. Children are the truly powerless in society and if they are to have any hope of avoiding victimization by those powerful enough to exploit them it will only be through the efforts of those who are able to exercise their own power help them. Joe Paterno was aware that a child was victimized in a terrible fashion (whatever details he did or did not know, a grown adult man showering with a ten year old at a University’s athletic facility is itself, without the need for any more information, enough to know that something terribly wrong is happening — there is no benign explanation for such an inappropriate act). Arguably he complied with the most minimal of responsibilities imposed on him by the University. However, he did not even come close to doing what any of us would believe we should have done in the same situation — take action to help the child already victimized and prevent future victims by taking any number of serious actions starting with contacting the police. Joe Posnanski, claims its too “dark” to make this simple criticism of Joe Paterno. Sure, Joe Paterno is not perfect, and perhaps he can be forgiven for his inaction, but to stick your head in the sand and not even mention that he failed is to take exactly the same kind of action that Joe Paterno did — to duck responsibility and claim that its too hard to state a truth that really doesn’t need much debating.

Second, and here is the important part — nobody (perhaps other than Joe Paterno) required Joe Posnanski to write this post. He voluntarily chose to bring this subject up in a public forum seemingly for the sole reason of stating that he can’t even bring himself to offer the mild criticism that Joe Paterno could have and should have easily done more to prevent over a decade of abuse of additional victims. Essentially, Joe Posnanski is telling all of those victims that their experience is bad, and what happened to them is unfortunate, but not so unfortunate that he can even mildly criticize a man for not picking up the phone and spending a miniscule amount of time talking to police. He is essentially telling all similarly powerless victims that what happened to them is not so bad that someone who had the power to easily prevent it should have done anything to help them. Even more so, by chosing to write for the sole purpose of saying that we don’t have enough “light” to criticize Joe Paterno, he is implicitly (and pretty clearly) using his position of power as a public writer to defend him. The clear message here is that even to criticize those who had the power to help is not justified in this situation. One wonders exactly what kind of potential victimization would justify criticism for failing to do what we all hope someone who could have done something would do?

Finally, the fact that Mr. Posnanski is so unwilling to state the obvious because he is writing a book about the subject matter shows exactly why this abuse was tolerated for so long. Its suppposed to be hard to make morally correct choices — the hard is what makes it great. Yet here we have a case where seemingly everyone involved chose instead to make the easy choice — the choice that would make their life seemingly go better, even if another helpless child might become a victim as a result. Let someone else help them, i have games to coach and a book I want to write.

For all of the victims out there, this silent refusal to act, to make even the slightest effort to do what is right — when the cost is far, far less, than what the victim has had to endure, is what really makes the crime so isolating and devastating. For it is only then that the victims realize how alone they really are, and how little they mean to those whose power may only consist of a public space to write articles, but who could at least use that public space to say to those victims that they deserved more, both from their attacker, and from those who could have stopped him, but decided it was easier to wait for the light that wouldn’t come for another decade until someone finally decided to press the on switch on their flashlight.

Winning games, and writing books, ultimately is more important. That is the message sent, loud and clear, by waiting for the “light” rather than doing, and saying, what each of us has the power to do to help. Rather than wait powerlessly for the darkness to secede, each of us has the power to illuminate the darkness in our way. When we chose not to do so, we are not waiting to make a choice — we are making a choice.

in closing, to all of the victims who may be reading this story, let me apologize to you on behalf of my fellow human beings who ignored you for so long, and who are still ignoring you. You deserve some light.

[quote name=mb21]Nothing makes me laugh more than when one fan from another team tries to give comfort to another team’s fans: http://www.blackshoediaries.com/2011/11/8/2548533/words-of-encouragement-from-a-purdue-fan

We see this shit on SB Nation all the time. It makes laugh each time.[/quote]
http://www.offtackleempire.com/2011/11/8/2547485/an-open-letter-from-a-buckeye-fan-to-penn-state-fans

The counts that bother me are the violent ones. I don’t care that a public intox, disorderly conduct, or that type of shit gets prosecuted. I’d actually prefer it doesn’t so I’m only upset that the charges relating to violence weren’t prosecuted. Same with DUI’s though those are almost always pleaded out.

[quote name=Berselius]Can’t listen to the audio at work. What’s going on?[/quote]Madden was asked what the next shoe to drop is going to be and he said he’s hearing that Sandusky was pimping these kids at Second Mile out to wealthy people.

He also expects, as we talked about here, that we’re going to soon find out that Sandusky’s retirement from coaching was forced. In return for his retirement the university and JoePa covered it up. I think that’s inevitable. Coaches at 55 just don’t retire.

Like MO said, there were rumors last night that there would be major news regarding what else happened at Second Mile in the near future.

[quote name=mb21]Madden was asked what the next shoe to drop is going to be and he said he’s hearing that Sandusky was pimping these kids at Second Mile out to wealthy people.
[/quote]What the hell is wrong with these people. That just sounds too unbelievable to have happened.

And how was his wife not aware that this has been happening? I mean he had little kids sleep over at his house.

I was sure the “major charge” is the coerced retirement in exchange for silence. That seems way more plausible, if not probable.

[quote name=mb21]http://thatlawyerdude.blogspot.com/2011/11/strong-defense-of-joe-paterno-why.html?m=0

Should I even bother reading that shit?[/quote]I just contemplated dropping out of law school after reading that.

[quote name=WaLi]I’m sure Paterno didn’t go to reporters because he was worried of being accused of trying to make sure McQuade didn’t steal his job. What a crock of shit.[/quote]That whole article is what we call in the business “pure sophistry.”

[quote name=GBTS]I was sure the “major charge” is the coerced retirement in exchange for silence. That seems way more plausible, if not probable.[/quote]If that’s the case, Paterno would already have been arrested. I think that’s very likely what happened, but I also think it’s likely we’ll never have confirmation of it unless Sandusky confirms it in a confession.

[quote name=Berselius]I’m not even skeptical. I think it’s utter fabulism until I hear from someone else.[/quote]I’m less inclined to deny things at this point because so much of this has been wholly unbelievable, but I’m not ready to call it a fact yet. Nor am I ready to link the disappearance of the DA to this either. However, NOTHING would surprise me in the least anymore.

[quote name=Aisle424]I’m less inclined to deny things at this point because so much of this has been wholly unbelievable, but I’m not ready to call it a fact yet. Nor am I ready to link the disappearance of the DA to this either. However, NOTHING would surprise me in the least anymore.[/quote]Yeah, nothing about this is believable. I still can’t get over that.

[quote name=mb21](dying laughing) just finally read that (not all of it). What the fuck is it with people like that? Why does it happen so often on SB Nation? Do we need to write an fan post on the Rangers SB blog about how we feel for Rangers fans?[/quote]
I’m sure that Alvin has already done it for us.

[quote name=mb21]I hope so, because it’s important we let our Rangers fans know that the Cubs fans brotherhood stand tall with them.[/quote]
It’s important to help them out, it’s such a small market.

Penn State holds itself to a higher standard.

And when they face criticism for not attaining that standard, well, apparently they just burn the damn building down, gather up the people who ran it (regardless of “facts” – NOT MY WORDS, THE BOT’S WORDS!), and shoot them.

by ReadingRambler on Nov 10, 2011 10:35 AM EST up reply 2 recs

These guys are so out of touch it’s fascinating. They’re facing criticism for not attaining that higher standard? Like there’s one accepted standard that includes child rapists and the other that doesn’t. What the fuck?

I’m just waiting for a commenter in that thread to blame the raped 10-year old for not going to the police.

[quote name=mb21]http://www.blackshoediaries.com/2011/11/10/2551591/joe-paterno-scapegoat-fall-guy-patsy#82503455

Whatever good the charity was doing, it did a lot worse in raping so many children.[/quote]
Also, in thinking about this, nobody’s actions along the way were the actions of people surprised about the developments. Think about it. We’ve all been speculating based on the scenario that McQueary walked in and shocked out of his mind that he had witnessed something so awful. He may have been shocked at the graphic nature of physically seeing a boy get ass-raped by an old man, but anybody who was truly SHOCKED at the mere idea that such an incident could possibly happen would almost assuredly run to the cops, right?

And even if he still called his dad – why wasn’t his immediate reaction “WHAT? Why are you caling me? Call the fucking police!” But instead, his reaction was to have his son removed from the situation as quickly as possible. That sounds like an action from somebody who may have thought through possible scenarios where this could happen.

The Schultz, Curley, and Paterno also acted in the same deliberate manner. How could this not absolutely floor them? But instead they calmly assessed what was legal and proper and went from there (ignoring a lot of what is legal and proper).

None of these men acted like this was something that couldn’t have been foreseen.

I’ve been checking out the comments on the site this morning and they are fascinating. People aligning themselves with a JoePa and against the University. Angry at everyone and excusing JoePa. They have been advocating rioting and destruction of property and blame the Board of Trustees for the rioting.

The situation is pretty simple in this fact. The football program, The Second Mile & the University administration (Probably including the Chairman of the BoT) knowingly harbored and protected a child molester since 1998. I personally believe Sandusky’s retirement was forced due to the ’98 victim. The fact that more evidence and another offense came up again in 2002(?) and those involved at PSU did not take it to the police shows just how complicit they were. You only need one credible data point for child molestation and they had TWO and still didn’t act responsibly.

It’s hard to imagine there were not whispers around the University, program, and community about who Sandusky was but that didn’t matter.

You only need one credible data point for child molestation and they had TWO and still didn’t act responsibly.

Exactly. That data point didn’t even have to be what McQueary said it was. It could just have been Sandusky naked in the shower with a naked 10 year old. That shit is wrong and everybody knows it. Everybody knew it in 2002. That information in itself, the same information that JoePa says was told to him (basically) is more than enough to draw the conclusion that Sandusky was doing something wrong and needed to be kept away from children immediately. If that’s all the info the school ever had, they still fucked up. We know they had a lot more info though.

I think those commentators just want to maintain there belief in Joe as the Saint/Everything good about football/Infallible. Placing the blame on the BoT/Media allows them to keep their image of Joe rather than see that even a man like Joe (If you buy into his image) is prone to self-interest and ego at the expense of others. Maybe that is too simplistic a view on the commentators but that is my POV right now. Hell they were already blaming the BoT for the riots.

They don’t want their program to be changed by this, which I understand. But shit can’t stay the same. Lots of hope from Staters about landing Urben Meyer. 1. Good luck getting a big name coach with your program in shambles and boosters likely to stop funding (These are some of the same people commenting at the BDS blog) and 2. Urban brings his own baggage with him. Maybe you look for someone with the appearance of integrity to help rebuild.

Word is PSU hasn’t lost one of their incoming football recruits yet. I’m guessing that too is fluid.

[quote name=cdw]Word is PSU hasn’t lost one of their incoming football recruits yet. I’m guessing that too is fluid.[/quote]Yeah, that’s going to change. Recruits sign the LOI in a few months. Those who have already committed will have to contact other schools first, set up a meeting and so on.

[quote name=mb21]That’s the whole thing. Even if McQueary did what every other person would have done right away, he still did shit that few people would have done.[/quote]I think it’s just about impossible to guess what anyone would have done at any point after witnessing something like this. We all know what we think we would do, but unless it’s actually happened, we’re just guessing. And I don’t think the effects are limited to instantaneous shock.

In the report, the account of Victim 8 scared the shit out of me. The guy who saw what Sandusky was doing had fought in the Korean War and described what he saw as more shocking than seeing guys with their guts blown out and arms dismembered. He’s now in a nursing home with dementia. Now, I don’t think we can say he went insane because of what he saw, but at the time his coworkers thought he was going to have a heart attack. This guy ran and told people right away, he never filed an official report, nor did any of his coworkers or his supervisor. I don’t buy that anyone thought the guy was lying. They all knew what happened. There are just so many people who all responded the same way, I have a hard time believing that the average person or even the better than average person would have behaved differently in the moment or further down the road. Maybe Penn State is such an awful place that no one had the courage to do anything about it, but I find it difficult to accept that Penn State is all that different from anywhere else in this regard.

Wow.

http://www.thepostgame.com/features/201111/another-era-and-another-sport-sex-abuse-scandal-still-inflicting-pain-today

[quote name=mb21]That and what happened at PSU just makes you despise humanity.[/quote]I have a pretty strong stomach usually, but I can’t read all the way through these articles and reports in one sitting. I start feeling too sick and angry.

Still keeps his job

[quote name=Aisle424]http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/rapid-reports/post/16065053[/quote]
They just need to put him in a locked, windowless room surrounded by armed guards and sentry towers. That would make sure he’s safe.

[quote name=GBTS]How? How how how how how?[/quote]Technically it’s because he has not been fired. Duh.

[quote name=GBTS]How? How how how how how?[/quote]If he was fired and for some reason McQuade is found innocent, couldn’t the BoT get in trouble for firing him? Or I guess they could just say him being under trial was detrimental to the image of the University.

By everyone, I’m including the students because, well, you saw it.

[quote name=Aisle424]
I don’t know where the idea that you had to break an actual law in order to get fired got started.[/quote]
No kidding. Due process is a federal right wrt criminal proceedings, not employment. Same goes for free speech.

[quote name=Aisle424]Behavior detrimental to the welfare of the University or something like that would be good enough, I would suspect.

I don’t know where the idea that you had to break an actual law in order to get fired got started.[/quote]Obviously you don’t have to break the law to get fired, but I think there are reasons you can’t get fired. One reason is medical. I’m wondering if conviction of a crime is another.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7215871/nebraska-cornhuskers-regent-fears-player-fan-safety-penn-state-nittany-lions

[quote name=Berselius]http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7215871/nebraska-cornhuskers-regent-fears-player-fan-safety-penn-state-nittany-lions[/quote]If I was Nebraska I’d ask for the game to be played in Lincoln and have a strong argument for it.

I don’t really want to get to involved in this discussion, but overheard by the SO on a crazy radio show she enjoys listening to/mocking today: “”I think the whole situation is terrible. I just feel so bad for those football players who have to play this weekend!”

[quote name=mb21]What the fuck? http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/child_rapists/#45/quote
While (possibly) true that the acts were physically violent, in terms of holding a boy down and raping him, it was true even in venerable ancient Greece that older men were psychologically manipulating boys into doing this. See the Millgram Experiment, yet again.

I’m probably in the minority here but I’m still hoping PSU beats UNL this weekend. I want UNL’s first year in the B1G to be as painful an entry as possible.

Seeing all these dumbass students must have been horrible, but so would be seeing Paterno taking a victory lap in his final games before retiring.

[quote name=Berselius]http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/11/penn_state_board_of_trustees_g.html

I don’t really buy this argument at all. It was clear that Paterno had to go, at least before the game on Saturday. That same ugly scene would have still happened, unless they made their announcement at 7:30 AM or something (aka. 4 AM in College Student Mean Time)[/quote]Yeah, I don’t buy it either. PSU finally made a good decision. If we’re going to criticize them for that then we may as well criticize every decision they make. They did the right thing. They did the only thing they could do.

I thought the GJ report implied that there were statements or some sort of corroboration with many of the victims.

[quote name=Berselius]I thought the GJ report implied that there were statements or some sort of corroboration with many of the victims.[/quote]That’s what I thought. I also don’t think they could get a conviction based on McQueary’s testimony. Paterno would be willing to testify that McQueary did not tell him what he told the grand jury. He’s already record essentially saying that McQueary never told him that. I actually don’t think McQueary’s testimony is going to be that valuable.

[quote name=mb21]I don’t think that matters, 424. Is McQueary not going to testify because he no longer works at PSU? I suppose it’s possible, but he’s already on record. He’ll have to testify, but the government can subpoena him if necessary and he’s locked into a story or he faces perjury charges.[/quote]He is pretty much compelled to testify now. That is true.

I wonder if he struck some sort of deal to not lose his job to come forward with the story?

[quote name=cdw]I’m probably in the minority here but I’m still hoping PSU beats UNL this weekend. I want UNL’s first year in the B1G to be as painful an entry as possible.[/quote]Poor choice of language there.

[quote name=GBTS]This guy might as well have written, “Hello. I am a pederast.”[/quote]I don’t think it could have been more obvious.

[quote name=mb21]I don’t think there’s any doubt this guy is a fan of NAMBLA: http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/child_rapists/#50/quote

I guess I would ask the following: If you witnessed Philotimes having anal sex with his student Alcibiades in ancient Greece where this was an accepted custom, do you think the right thing to do would be to run up to the teacher and beat him bloody (as some here have suggested as the proper course of action)? If so, presumably you think that either: 1)the practice itself is inherently harmful to the student (and, again, you may be right- I’m open to empirical evidence here). or 2)You think the act is immoral regardless of context and regardless of harm. I disagree here.

Holy. Shit.

I’m thinking if if I was in ancient Greece I’d work toward correcting a fucked up practice. Kinka like we did, yo.

I’ll be shocked if he doesn’t offer to babysit someone’s kids before he gets banned there.

That guy is hide your kids scary.

[quote name=mb21]That guy is hide your kids scary.[/quote]I don’t have kids, so I’m going to go and hide my girlfriend’s nieces. Jesus motherfucking tap-dancing Christ.

[quote name=Aisle424]I don’t have kids, so I’m going to go and hide my girlfriend’s nieces. Jesus motherfucking tap-dancing Christ.[/quote]This was a pretty inopportune excuse to show off that you have a girlfriend.

[quote name=GBTS]This was a pretty inopportune excuse to show off that you have a girlfriend.[/quote]He’s cool enough that he pulled it off though.

[quote name=mb21]I’m busy hiding my future grandchildren right now.[/quote]Is that what you call it?

[quote name=Aisle424]I refrained from showing her picture. She’s hot.[/quote]I took her to the mall to get some glamour shots for her birthday.

Small world.

[quote name=GBTS]I took her to the mall to get some glamour shots for her birthday.[/quote]
They turned out really nice.

[quote name=mb21]That guy is report his fucking IP to the local authorities scary.[/quote]
.

[quote name=mb21]I was thinking the same thing, MO. If I was Tango, I’d send those comments and IP addresses to the FBI. He’s probably using a proxy so wouldn’t help much.[/quote]This is a reminder to everyone here to not piss me off. i will send your IP address to the FBI. I ain’t scared.

McQ’s status still under deliberation…
http://www.sbnation.com/ncaa-football/2011/11/10/2553056/mike-mcqueary-penn-state-coach-nebraska-game-president-erickson/in/2304037

One word we won’t hear during this week’s NE/PSU game: pentrate.

[quote name=cdw]McQ’s status still under deliberation…
http://www.sbnation.com/ncaa-football/2011/11/10/2553056/mike-mcqueary-penn-state-coach-nebraska-game-president-erickson/in/2304037/quoteI'd hardly call McQueary a “casualty of this tragedy.”

[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]He’s being de facto fired. I’m betting the board was bound in some way that they can’t fire him directly, so they announce last night that he isn’t fired, make it a hot topic, and let public opinion force him out.[/quote]That could be the case. But if they really wanted McQ fired they could’ve leveraged the promotion of the interm head coach. McQ’s firing being part of the positional upgrade, future considerations for the job, etc. Though I don’t think any interm coach would feel secure in their new position or about promises so that probably limits the leverage in that situation.

The rumored sex ring story has been clarified that the donors who are rumored to have been involved are donors to the foundation, not to the university.

[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]The rumored sex ring story has been clarified that the donors who are rumored to have been involved are donors to the foundation, not to the university.[/quote]So what’s the deal on that?

[quote name=mb21]One word we won’t hear during this week’s NE/PSU game: pentrate.[/quote][/img][/quote]Probably cause that’s not a word.

Please don’t report me to the FBI.

There is some speculation now that McQueary is prevented from being fired by whistleblower protections.

[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]There is some speculation now that McQueary is prevented from being fired by whistleblower protections.[/quote]I really don’t understand how that guy would want to still work there.

McQ grew up in State College. Sometimes it’s hard to move on from your dreams. Especially, when they go back to childhood. Plus his network was built around those connections. No matter the situation will force him to leave there sooner than later.

[quote name=cdw]McQ grew up in State College. Sometimes it’s hard to move on from your dreams. Especially, when they go back to childhood. Plus his network was built around those connections. No matter the situation will force him to leave there sooner than later.[/quote]He’s been a big part of that program for a long time. It will be hard for him, but I think it has to be done. I think anyone in any position of oversight has to be gone. This includes the certain administrators and all coaches.

They mentioned on ESPN today that one of McQueary’s big roles with the team has been recruiting. Good luck with getting any child to go to PSU if you’re sending that man to the house.

“But what was the understanding of dignity that any of the adults in this situation had? It didn’t extend to even trying to find out the name of the child who Mike McQueary, a coaching assistant, said that he saw Sandusky rape in the football locker room shower in 2002. (Sandusky, who has denied this and other charges, was retired at the time, but had an office on campus.) That boy is simply called Victim 2 in the grand jury’s findings; McQueary guessed that he was about ten years old. McQueary told Paterno; Paterno told the athletic director, who brought in a university vice-president. And then Sandusky lost his locker room keys—but nothing else. For almost a decade afterward, Paterno watched as Sandusky continued capitalizing on Penn State’s name, and Paterno’s, to gain access to children. If Paterno didn’t feel that that robbed him of his dignity—a word that shouldn’t be confused with public reputation—then what could?”

Read more http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/closeread/2011/11/joe-paternos-tears.html#ixzz1dMvrGadC

I saw the Kutcher thing yesterday or the day before. I’m OK with it. He realized he was wrong and admitted as much. That’s about as much as you can ask of someone when they make a mistake. Plus, there’s this: http://demiandashton.org/about-demi-and-ashton-foundation

[quote name=mb21]MGL is batshit fucking insane too: http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/child_rapists/#61/quote
We knew MGL was insane already though (dying laughing)

so, mgl, pro NAMBLA and anti cursing in the club house. an interesting combination i must say.

(dying laughing)

(dying laughing) that was really good. He did nail it.

Paterno has hired a criminal defense lawyer. Methinks shit is about to go down.

[quote name=mb21]At the very least he should be charged with perjury. I think it’s fairly clear he lied to the grand jury.[/quote]I’m really thinking GBTS was right and we’ll soon see Paterno and Spanier charged regarding Sandusky’s retirement and the 1998 incident, and at that point, I think we’ll also see Paterno indicted for perjury.

[quote name=cdw]THIS. There have to be some additional criminal charges they can hit Joe with if it goes this way. If not, knowingly covering up and allowing Sandusky to remain affiliated with PSU has to be problematic during a civil trial.[/quote]Given what’s reported in the grand jury findings, if it is/has been discovered Pateno knew about the 1994 or 1998 incidents, he cannot escape a charge of perjury.

This was suggested in Silver’s article, and I thought it was relevant given the situation being discussed and also where I went to school…

http://www.thenation.com/blog/164535/penn-state-and-berkeley-tale-two-protests

That’s fucked up, MO.

This is just a rumor at this point, but it’s being spread by a guy that has been one of the few reporting on this case since April.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news?slug=ycn-10407023

If ^ is true, I’m done with college football.

[quote name=Rice Cube]http://msn.foxsports.com/collegefootball/story/Penn-State-places-assistant-coach-Mike-McQueary-on-administrative-leave-in-wake-of-chid-sex-abuse-scandal-111111

Why not just fired?[/quote]I mean, he was the whistleblower, but for all intents and purposes he only blew a dog whistle and nobody heard.

[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]The more that comes out, the nastier this gets. Nothing would surprise me now.[/quote]
The link I posted seems totally unbelievable. I can’t imagine it being true. The problem with that is… if you told me any other the stuff in the grand jury document, I wouldn’t have believed that either.

There are so many unanswered questions in all this. Why the multiple changes in personnel at the same time the investigation was ongoing? They had to know what was up? Why did they wait until a bye week and the week after Paterno’s record to go public with this? Who determined that timing? Was is the Board of Trustees?

And then there are the questions external to PSU. Why wasn’t Sandusky charged in the early 2000′s? They seem to have had quite a bit of evidence and witnesses by that point.

[quote name=shawndgoldman]The link I posted seems totally unbelievable. I can’t imagine it being true. The problem with that is… if you told me any other the stuff in the grand jury document, I wouldn’t have believed that either.

There are so many unanswered questions in all this. Why the multiple changes in personnel at the same time the investigation was ongoing? They had to know what was up? Why did they wait until a bye week and the week after Paterno’s record to go public with this? Who determined that timing? Was is the Board of Trustees?

And then there are the questions external to PSU. Why wasn’t Sandusky charged in the early 2000′s? They seem to have had quite a bit of evidence and witnesses by that point.[/quote]All good questions. There are also good questions to be asked about the board. Whom on the board knew and when? Why has the board seemed to be only reactive, seemingly gauging public opinion before they decide who to fire? To what degree are the board’s actions being compelled by the governor?

[quote name=shawndgoldman]This is just a rumor at this point, but it’s being spread by a guy that has been one of the few reporting on this case since April.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news?slug=ycn-10407023

If ^ is true, I’m done with college football.[/quote]
I find this story about as believable as that ridiculous theory that the DA who didn’t prosecute was murdered as part of a cover up. The guy who is spreading this story around is a professional troll that makes Kaplan look like Edward R Murrow.

I wouldn’t be surprised if it was true, but I wouldn’t be surprised by anything involved in this story at this point. But for now, I just think it’s ridiculous.

Shawn, as a PSU graduate, what say you? Specifically, what are your thoughts about the rioting and the general opinion of the PSU student body regarding this?

Yeah I agree, Shawn. There’s more here to consider than I was initially doing and they can’t penalize the seniors. The NCAA must allow transfers without sitting a year though. If they don’t do that, fuck ‘em.

[quote name=mb21]Shawn, as a PSU graduate, what say you? Specifically, what are your thoughts about the rioting and the general opinion of the PSU student body regarding this?[/quote]
I think it’s embarrassingly idiotic. But I also think we have to keep in mind there are other people on campus holding vigils for the real victims of this. And I also think that despite the much larger size of the rioting mobs, that was driven in part by the desire to “see what would happen.”

I also think the take you had above and that Jon Stewart had were on point. These people were wrapped up in faith that JoePa (C) was a goodly soul. The possibility that he was somehow responsible for this in any way is completely incompatible with their worldview. Combine that with an accurate assessment that the media and BoT disproportionately emphasized their immediate focus on JoePa when there were at least two people who were more culpable (Curly and Schultz), and you give them a reason to feel justified in their anger. It was a really, really bad mix of events that led to this.

I’ll also say that the reports I’ve received from students is that the last two days have been much more thoughtful and respectful on campus.

I figured the anger and nonsense would turn more toward rational thought. I thought it was dumb that night, but I actually understood what was going on. I didn’t sympathize, but I understood it and I also knew that over time fewer and fewer people would ignore evidence and the awful things that happened here in favor of the more reasonable response to this.

[quote name=mb21]I figured the anger and nonsense would turn more toward rational thought. I thought it was dumb that night, but I actually understood what was going on. I didn’t sympathize, but I understood it and I also knew that over time fewer and fewer people would ignore evidence and the awful things that happened here in favor of the more reasonable response to this.[/quote]
The student body president has been very impressive every time I’ve heard him or about what he’s said. He’s given a voice to the crazies without fully supporting them, and has also highlighted the more rational people on campus.

Remember, this is a campus with nearly 50000 students. Even if 1000 people were rioting it’s ~ 2% of the student body. (There were also reports that many of the rioters were non-students.)

Not defending the idiots, by the way… just pointing out that the idiots are a subset and not a superset of the PSU student body.

[quote name=shawndgoldman]Not defending the idiots, by the way… just pointing out that the idiots are a subset and not a superset of the PSU student body.[/quote]Yeah, I know. I didn’t think you were. I was just wondering what your perspective on it was since you went there. I told my brother the day after the rioting that there would be fewer and fewer people as time wore on and emotions subsided. He coached there for a million years. It’s a damn shame how he left, but it absolutely had to be done.

[quote name=mb21]Yeah, I know. I didn’t think you were. I was just wondering what your perspective on it was since you went there. I told my brother the day after the rioting that there would be fewer and fewer people as time wore on and emotions subsided. He coached there for a million years. It’s a damn shame how he left, but it absolutely had to be done.[/quote]
What I’ve been saying is this:
“It breaks my heart that I’m happy to see JoePa leave.”

[quote name=shawndgoldman]What I’ve been saying is this:
“It breaks my heart that I’m happy to see JoePa leave.”[/quote]I was never a Penn State fan, but I have to agree with that. I always had great respect for the program even before they joined the B10. I no longer do and that’s terrible. I’ve enjoyed rooting for PSU against teams other than Iowa, but as I mentioned earlier in this thread, the last thing I want is for them to represent the Big Ten in its first championship game. That would not be good for the conference. 50% of the articles written about the first conference championship would be about the PSU sex scandal.

Many, many more articles need to be written about that. Many, many more people need to explore what happened and what can be done to ensure it doesn’t happen again, but I don’t want the first CCG to be about that.

[quote name=mb21]Getting back to NCAA punishment, where could it even begin? OSU had, what, 5 scholarships taken away for 3 years because of tattoos and selling personal property? What’s the equivalent here? 6 million fewer scholarships?

That’s really the problem here. There’s no acceptable punishment from the NCAA. You can’t fine them $1 million and be done with it (that would be a massive fine). PSU’s athletic department is second in the nation in profit with about $60 million. $1 million does nothing.[/quote]
I think that, as they pointed out, their own bylaws are superseded by criminal law. They could and should easily be able to impose sanctions beyond that though if stuff violates their own rules, and impose punishments accordingly. I’m guessing they’ll have to wait until all this legal stuff goes through though.

[quote name=mb21]Based on what we know of pedophiles, it’s a certainty. I’ve read some say that they believed it started in 1977 when Second Mile was founded. I think that’s naive. He started grooming children in the manner we’re aware of in 1977 (more than likely), but has probably been molesting children most or all of his adult life.[/quote]
One thought I’ve had is that I’ve always hated Mark May for being irrationally anti-PSU, and now I’m looking at him in a totally different light. He was recruited by PSU and played football at Pitt. I’m not suggesting anything happened to him personally, but I wouldn’t be surprised if this thing was rumored to be “PSU’s Dirty Secret” for a long time within PA football circles and he’s had it out for PSU because he suspected (but couldn’t prove) how evil they’ve been.

[quote name=shawndgoldman]Ending the program altogether wouldn’t be practical, but I think a forced reboot will be on the table.

No scholarships and no bowl or Big 10 championship games for at least 4 years, with all coaches fired and all players allowed to transfer without sitting out a year… or something like that.[/quote]
So no death penalty, just a 4-year coma.

[quote name=shawndgoldman]One thought I’ve had is that I’ve always hated Mark May for being irrationally anti-PSU, and now I’m looking at him in a totally different light. He was recruited by PSU and played football at Pitt. I’m not suggesting anything happened to him personally, but I wouldn’t be surprised if this thing was rumored to be “PSU’s Dirty Secret” for a long time within PA football circles and he’s had it out for PSU because he suspected (but couldn’t prove) how evil they’ve been.[/quote]I think I asked yesterday if there was something wrong with me for agreeing with every word Mark May has been saying about this (well, almost every word anyway).

[quote name=shawndgoldman]Yet another reason to let the investigation(s) run its course. This has brought the program into “anything is possible” territory. So a full investigation of everything is in order before any punishments are finalized.[/quote]Yep. Hopefully it all comes out in the wash.

Mike McQueary —> Now going by “James Jones”

http://blog.pennlive.com/davidjones/2011/11/mcqueary_tells_psu_wideouts_he.html

[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]A board member who spoke on condition of anonymity has admitted Paterno was fired largely due to media pressure, as well as pressure from the governor’s office.[/quote]
Of course he was! I think it’s widely acknowledge he was only still “coaching” because of the positive PR the University received. When he became a PR liability instead of an asset it was probably an easy decision for them. (It was unanimous right?)

I was an independent investigation. I do not want PSU having a thing to do with the investigation.

[quote name=mb21]I was an independent investigation. I do not want PSU having a thing to do with the investigation.[/quote]Agreed. The leadership there is corrupted top-to-bottom.

[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Holy shit. Protective custody?[/quote]
He had apparently been receiving lots of death threats. There are very few people that don’t hate him right now. The PSU die hards want his head on a plate as “equal justice” for the firing of “St. Joseph the Fair.” Those outside the program see him as nothing more than a coward that didn’t act in the moment.

Throughout this whole scandal, he’s the only one I haven’t had a passionate hate for. He was put in an incredibly difficult situation, and is the only one to have been open and honest with investigators. He’s also the only one that had very little power to change the culture that let this happen. In other words, he made an awful mistake one night when put in an unimaginable situation. The rest of them were making mistakes for a living.

[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Agreed. The leadership there is corrupted top-to-bottom.[/quote]Yep. I generally hate the federal government getting involved in things like this, but I think is the perfect example of something they should be sticking their nose in. Instead, they’ll wait until they hear about steroid use in baseball.

Excellent snyopsis of events here:
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/11/who_knew_what_about_jerry_sand.html

woah…

McQueary is a guy who once stepped in and broke up a player-related knife fight in a campus dining hall — a fight police admit could have been very ugly. But this week, he is getting blasted by the public for doing too little.

[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]How about vacating the victories and titles earned while Sandusky was employed by PSU?[/quote]Does that really matter? What’s the loss? PSU still retains all the profit from those great seasons, the records stand in that the games actually happened and so on. I’m all for doing that, but I want something that’s going to hurt the PSU athletic department.

I also think the suggestion was for that to be in addition to future penalties.

Which programs have been death penalty’d? Kentucky basketball in the 50s, SMU football. Anyone else?

[quote name=shawndgoldman]Agreed… it’s not so much that I think McQueary is innocent as much as I think he’s not as high on my “shit list” as Paterno, Spanier, Shultz, and Curly. Oh, and if it comes out that he was promoted to an assistant coach position in exchange for staying quiet... then he’s on the same level as the rest of them.[/quote]I hope not. If that’s the case, the death threats will never end.

[quote name=mb21]I hope not. If that’s the case, the death threats will never end.[/quote]
There are a lot of things I hope when it comes to this case, but I don’t have much faith they are true.

I don’t have that much sympathy for McCuey, at least in the long run. I think a lot of the reactions to what he did at the time of his discovery are a bit overblown, because it was a pretty crazy situation. I pretty much agree with what mb said over on Tango’s blog. If this happened even a year or two ago I’d have a lot more sympathy.

Even if we can somehow say that’s exactly what every single person would do in that situation, every single person in that situation would not make the decisions that McQueary did days, weeks, months and years after it happened. At some point he made the conscious decision that his career was more valuable than that of the child he saw being raped. Maybe he made that decision at the very moment he saw and that’s why he left. I don’t know, but at some point, probably within the first two months, he made the decision that his meaningless job was more important than that of a 10 year old child.

McQueary knew he helped run a foundation for troubled boys. He knew this child rapist was around boys every day of his life. He knew that every one of those children was at risk of suffering the same fate that boy he saw in the child. Despite this, at no point in the next year, two years, three, four or five years did he do anything at all about what he saw. How many of these functions did McQueary attend and smile while this sick man was using it as a source for his personal and disgusting entertainment?

….

I don’t believe for a moment that any half-way decent person witnesses a child being raped, does the absolute minimum, goes on with his life and then smiles and nods at the charity functions he surely attended. I don’t believe any decent human being would do that. Even if we could somehow grasp the idea that he let this slide a year or two, the sight of him with other children would be sickening to McQueary. He did nothing.

McQueary knew he helped run a foundation for troubled boys. He knew this child rapist was around boys every day of his life. He knew that every one of those children was at risk of suffering the same fate that boy he saw in the child. Despite this, at no point in the next year, two years, three, four or five years did he do anything at all about what he saw. How many of these functions did McQueary attend and smile while this sick man was using it as a source for his personal and disgusting entertainment?

This is the other thing that is troubling. I don’t know if he attended these functions, but I’m betting he did. He was a coach and I don’t see how he didn’t. He undoubtedly saw Sandusky with children, similar the one he saw him raping in the shower, and at that point HAD to know that not enough was being done. If that was 4 or 5 years after it happened, fine. At that point do something. You know for a fact that something that needed to be done wasn’t.

I actually have more sympathy for McQueary now that he’s getting death threats. He does not deserve that. He made some very poor decisions and I’m guessing he put his job first, but he at least told the person who probably had as much power as anyone in JoePa. He wasn’t the right person to tell and deserves criticism for it, but he did something. Everybody else is useless.

Good point, SK. I hadn’t considered that, but I think that’s a distinct possibility.

Yeah, shawn, he traded something. I don’t know exactly what he traded, but along the way he made many conscious decisions to do the wrong thing. That’s difficult for me to accept. I agree he was in the worst position. Any person witnessing what he did is in the worst position (other than the child of course!). There were just so many times he could have made a better decision and chose not to for one reason or another.

[quote name=mb21]Yeah, shawn, he traded something. I don’t know exactly what he traded, but along the way he made many conscious decisions to do the wrong thing. That’s difficult for me to accept. I agree he was in the worst position. Any person witnessing what he did is in the worst position (other than the child of course!). There were just so many times he could have made a better decision and chose not to for one reason or another.[/quote]This.

I’d have more sympathy if he had witnessed it in 2010 and it was just coming out. That’s still wrong, but at least he would have decided somewhat within reason that he had made an error in judgement and then eventually screwed up the courage to basically fuck himself in the name of doing the right thing. But it was almost 10 years. He had plenty of time and acted very comfortable with his position at PSU.

Not that it matters, but I think it was brought up before. PSU has started to lose recruits. The NCAA must allow the players on the current roster to transfer without penalty.