What the hell do you say about Bill James? No introduction is necessary, but not having one seems lame. It’s Bill James.
Obstructed View: You’ve mentioned in recent years how talking with scouts in Boston has helped you see the game in a way you hadn’t explored before. Has this changed the way you view some of the conclusions you and other sabermetricians reached?
Bill James: It may have, but I’m not aware that it has. The question sort of implicitly assumes that there’s a conflict between the way I see the game and the way the scouts see the game. The reality is more that we’re working on the same problems from different angles. I can only see so much, only understand so much. Working with people who understand other elements of the game is helpful.
OV: The Cubs hired Theo and you two worked in the Red Sox organization for a long time. From afar you’ve surely developed some opinions about how the Cubs front office has been run. In what different ways can we expect the Cubs to go about making decisions?
BJ: That’s sort of like you had asked me to review a movie by contrasting it with some other movie that I just dimly remember.
OV: You’ve mentioned in past interviews online and at other times that you’ve been given too much credit for sabermetrics. I believe much of the credit is well deserved, but I also think some other important analysts have been forgotten. Who inspired you and if you had to pick one person not given enough credit, who would it be and why?
BJ: As to who inspired me. . .the econometrics guys from the University of Chicago in the 1950s/1960s. One person not given enough credit would be Craig Wright, who worked for the Texas Rangers in the 1980s.
OV: Using your concept of Similarity Scores, Baseball-reference.com has Alfonso Soriano most similar (at the age of 35) to Jermaine Dye, Torii Hunter, Joe Carter, and Jim Edmonds which might suggest he has some value to the current Cubs. How much weight do you put on Similarity Scores and have you found it to be useful in determining future performance?
BJ: Similarity scores are enormously useful and I use them every day. But I don’t know that I see any similarity between Alfonso Soriano and Jim Edmonds.
OV: One of the first questions directed at Jed Hoyer during his first press conference reflected a popular sentiment here in Chicago: the Cubs need to improve defensively from what they showed in 2011. Given the complexity in gauging defensive talent and its impact on run prevention, how difficult is it for a GM to significantly improve team defense?
BJ: Well. . .it is not harder to improve defense than it is to improve the offense or the pitching. It’s probably not any easier, but it’s not harder. We have good and reliable measures of defensive performance.
OV: It seems that a common thought process behind some of the most well-known Saber-minds (yourself, Billy Beane, Theo) is that it is important to not focus so much on what one does know, but what one doesn’t know. What part of the game would you say we know the least about at this point?
BJ: There are many areas of the game that I know nothing at all about, so that would be contrasting one zero with another. I know nothing about international baseball. I know nothing or next to nothing about pitch calling (from the catcher’s standpoint). I know next to nothing about what is called mechanics. All that stuff about who lines up where on a relay throw; because I didn’t play the game at a high level, I don’t really understand that. There’s a lot of stuff I don’t understand.
OV: In what areas of research do you see baseball analysts exploring that hasn’t yet been explored?
BJ: College baseball, certainly. We seem to get hung up on the issue of the quality of the competition, which is really a nothing issue, but people get hung up on it. It’s a nothing issue in the sense that it’s not REALLY a difficult problem. But we never seem to get universally accepted or widely understood answers on that issue, so we don’t seem to go anywhere from there.
OV: Would you tend to agree with the statement that the Cubs (prior to the latest organizational changes) were the most backwards team in regards to how they viewed advanced analytics? How big of a project is it going to be to take the Cubs from where they were to a place where the Red Sox are today? And do you think the Cubs can ever fully catch up, or will they always be behind because of their late start in the process?
BJ: I doubt that the Cubs were as backward as you think in that area. I know there were at least a couple of guys who worked there who were very progressive, and I suspect more. I wouldn’t think that’s a real barrier to progress. The real barriers to making progress are like bad contracts that you have to live with, a shortage of talent flowing out of the minor leagues, a shortage of talent in the development process or the scouting process; those things take time to overcome. Not having analytical guys around you; you can take care of that in a week.
OV: How has the way you watch and enjoy baseball changed over the years? As it has gone from pastime to profession, what has that done to the way you feel about the game?
BJ: Well, the more you understand the game, the more you can enjoy the game.
OV: In your annual handbook you do the hitter projections, but you do not have anything to do with the pitcher projections as you believe they cannot be projected. Is this because of similar reasoning as Gary Huckabay used when he said there is no such thing as a pitching prospect? Is a pitcher’s performance that much more unreliable than a hitter? Why do you think that is?
BJ: I used to think that pitching performance was too difficult to even attempt to project, but the pitching projections in the Handbook are about as accurate as the hitting projections. I think there are some things you can’t do. Sometimes, if everything lines up right, you can take a hitter out of the minor leagues and say “This is a good minor league hitter; we expect him to hit about .280 with 18 home runs,” and sometimes you’re almost exactly right about those things. I don’t know that you can ever do that with a pitcher; I don’t know that you can ever take a pitcher out of the minor leagues and project accurately what he’s going to do in the majors in his first year or two. There are too many variables. But for established pitchers, the major league projections are as accurate as the hitter’s projections. I was just a little late to understand that.
OV: Obviously the Alfonso Soriano deal has been much worse than expected due to various leg injuries removing a major component of his value (speed). How crazy is
it to make a comparison between Soriano and Carl Crawford at the time their contracts were signed? How similar would you say the two players were at the time they entered free agency?
BJ: I can’t really comment on Carl.
OV: I just finished reading Popular Crime and thought it was a great book. First, how do you find the time to read more than a thousand books on crime stories while spending so much time researching and writing about baseball? Second, what crime story would you liked to have included in the book, but were unable to? What makes it a Popular Crime story?
BJ: I would have liked to write about Danny Rollings, but it was just too dark. . ..at the point of the book where the Danny Rollings story would have come the book was on the thin edge of being too gritty, too bloody. Writing about Danny Rollings at that point would have been like throwing a bucket of blood across the pages at exactly the wrong moment. (Rollings was the Gainesville Ripper, so called.) A similar problem was the Sylvia Likens story, which comes from Indianapolis in the mid-1960s; it’s just difficult to deal with a story like that in a way that doesn’t turn your stomach. I would have liked to write about the murder of Julia Wallace,which is an English case from the early 1930s. There were a lot of very interesting stories that just did not fit into the book at the place where I would have had to tell the story. In the 1960s you’re kind of writing about the assassinations and the radicals, and to throw in this pathetic, gross story about a teen-aged girl horribly abused in a basement just doesn’t fit, even though it’s a very interesting story that raises a series of worthwhile issues.
Bill James is the author of countless books on baseball. The Bill James 2012 Handbook was recently released. Earlier this year he branched out and published a non-baseball book, Popular Crime: Reflections on the Celebration of Violence. Two months earlier Solid Fool’s Gold was published. For $3 per month you join Bill James Online. And oh yeah, he’s the owner of two World Series rings and still works for the Boston Red Sox. He also grew up in the great state of Kansas where one of our writers currently lives.
Thank you to Bill James for taking some time to answer our questions here on our obscure corner of the internets. Truly, this is the best thing to every happen on this blog.
We had hoped that having him answer a few questions about the Cubs and baseball would allow for an unrediscreditation of our blog, but alas, we failed to ask the question for which man has long searched for an answer: Who owns the Cubs?
We didn’t even get any clarification about what might or might not be a misting station. We should really just stick with posts about writing posts about the proper posting of posts (and, of course, not eating dinner).
RC, I’m not sure how much Beltran will get. My guess is that if some team is wanting to sign him to be an outfielder he’ll get more money. The Cubs do have an opening in the OF so I wouldn’t mind if they signed him to play RF and went with LaHair at first. If LaHair fails then you could move Beltran to 1st and call up Brett Jackson.
It’s really cool that you got to talk to Bill James. Or at least type at him or whatever it was you did.
[quote name=Rice Cube]It’s really cool that you got to talk to Bill James. Or at least type at him or whatever it was you did.[/quote]I thought I may as well contact him and see if he’d be up for it. He got back to me the next day so the 4 of us came up with some questions and he even got those back to us the next day. I didn’t expect he’d do it, but figured why not ask? I can’t speak for the other 3, but I think we were all thrilled he agreed to do it and equally thrilled with the responses. It’s Bill James. You get a chance to ask him questions and you kind of blank out.
I guess as a quasi-employee of the Red Sox he can’t really talk about Carl Crawford. I’m somewhat disappointed that he wasn’t able to comment on who owns the Cubs or about misting stations either, but anytime you can get some time with Bill James is a good thing.
I found this interesting from Bill….. “We have good and reliable measures of defensive performance.”…..I’m curious as to what he was referring to and how that differs from what statfags use for defensive metrics. There seems to be noise that the current defensive metrics aren’t very reliable so I would be really interested in hearing what he was referring to.
[quote name=Rice Cube]I guess as a quasi-employee of the Red Sox he can’t really talk about Carl Crawford. I’m somewhat disappointed that he wasn’t able to comment on who owns the Cubs or about misting stations either, but anytime you can get some time with Bill James is a good thing.[/quote]I agree RC. I’m really disappointed that nobody asked him if he authored “Popular Crime” and if that was the same as writing “Popular Crime”. And if he only wrote it, then who authored it?
I think he’s probably talking about Dewan’s DRS (Fielding Bible), but could be talking about metrics that teams have created. I remember Theo blasting UZR because of what it said about Ellsbury.
[quote name=Mucker]I found this interesting from Bill….. “We have good and reliable measures of defensive performance.”…..I’m curious as to what he was referring to and how that differs from what statfags use for defensive metrics. There seems to be noise that the current defensive metrics aren’t very reliable so I would be really interested in hearing what he was referring to.[/quote]
I’m thinking that means that each team has their own proprietary metrics and as such they have to comment as vaguely as possible about said metrics.
Over several years I think defensive metrics are quite reliable, but it just takes longer for them to become reliable than offensive stats do.
What I thought was most interesting was when he mentioned that the Cubs had at least a couple progressive analysts already employed (probably more). I can’t help but think that the media is blind to this, which isn’t at all surprising.
[quote name=mb21]RC, I’m not sure how much Beltran will get. My guess is that if some team is wanting to sign him to be an outfielder he’ll get more money. The Cubs do have an opening in the OF so I wouldn’t mind if they signed him to play RF and went with LaHair at first. If LaHair fails then you could move Beltran to 1st and call up Brett Jackson.[/quote]This option makes a lot of sense to me (kudos to whoever thought it up first). You’re getting a switch-hitter who is still somewhat versatile defensively, you don’t have to pay him as much as Fielder/Pujols, and you don’t lose any draft picks during a retooling year.
I’ll spare this thread from the rest of my Sandusky hypos, as this is one of the greatest things to every happen to this blog. (dying laughing)
MB, the bottom of the page that lists recent activity or tweets or whatever the hell those are from Berselius, Aisle 424, And Counting and yourself, as I scroll down the page, it doesn’t move and gets overlapped with the comments making it impossible to read. I use IE8…..does that have something to do with it. I hope you understand what I’m talking about.
Someone else mentioned that, Mucker. Let me disable those twitter boxes down there. We’ll be moving to Joomla 1.7 sometime in the next month so we’ll try it then.
[quote name=mb21]Someone else mentioned that, Mucker. Let me disable those twitter boxes down there. We’ll be moving to Joomla 1.7 sometime in the next month so we’ll try it then.[/quote]I’m just glad it wasn’t just me. Thanks.
I disabled those. Let me know if all is good.
[quote name=mb21]What I thought was most interesting was when he mentioned that the Cubs had at least a couple progressive analysts already employed (probably more). I can’t help but think that the old Cubs management was blind to this], which isn’t at all surprising.[/quote]
Fixed.
[quote name=mb21]I disabled those. Let me know if all is good.[/quote]Thanks!!
But now the damn unicorn footer moves with the page. Oh well (dying laughing)
[quote name=Mucker]I’m just glad it wasn’t just me. Thanks.[/quote]Are you behind work firewalls too? I have IE 7 and the same issue.
Apparently KC is kicking the tires on Big Z. Seems like they’re making a big pitching push this year. Trying to out-Giants the Giants, I guess. But who is their LIncecum?
[quote name=mb21]I disabled those. Let me know if all is good.[/quote]The twitter boxes are gone but know the Theriot TOOTBLAN banner is doing it. (dying laughing)
[quote name=Mucker]The twitter boxes are gone but know the Theriot TOOTBLAN banner is doing it. (dying laughing)[/quote]TOOTBLAN —> taking out our text boxes like a nincompoop
Obviously the solution is not allow Sandusky to have any more planes on PSU’s campus.
[quote name=Mucker]The twitter boxes are gone but know the Theriot TOOTBLAN banner is doing it. (dying laughing)[/quote]Maybe a java problem? I opened the page with IE just out of curiosity. It worked fine for me, but I can update my work computer freely with no firewalls.
I don’t want to begrudge anyone for asking the question, but re: Soriano and his similarity scores– Jermaine Dye became permanently unemployed at 35 years old. Joe Carter produced negative WAR in his age 35-38 seasons before he retired. Alfonso Soriano will be 36 on Opening Day next year, and reality is, he’s just not that similar to either Torii Hunter or Jim Edmonds.
So to answer the question– Alfonso Soriano almost certainly is of no value to the Cubs, or perhaps any other club for that matter.
But way to go getting an interview with Bill James. Good stuff, really enjoyed the read.
One more thing though– are we still on this Alfonso Soriano v. Carl Crawford comp?
Honestly… I just don’t get this. These guys just are. not. similar.
[quote name=WaLi]Thanks!!
But now the damn unicorn footer moves with the page. Oh well (dying laughing)[/quote]I disabled that now so how’s it look now?
For those interested in BJ’s trusted fielding metrics, there is a piece he wrote on Jeter a few years back: http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=364073
He cites Dewan’s plus/minus as well as relative range factor. I don’t know if his views have evolved since then.
[quote name=Jack Nugent]One more thing though– are we still on this Alfonso Soriano v. Carl Crawford comp?
Honestly… I just don’t get this. These guys just are. not. similar.[/quote]Sori was always a power hitter.
[quote name=ACT]For those interested in BJ’s trusted fielding metrics, there is a piece he wrote on Jeter a few years back: http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=364073
He cites Dewan’s plus/minus as well as relative range factor. I don’t know if his views have evolved since then.[/quote]Rick Rolled!
Ugh, wrong link. Here it is: http://www.talksox.com/forum/damn-yankees/11272-great-article-jeters-fielding-bill-james.html
OMG I would love to see the contents of this email. The best scientific research comes via email.
One of these days, I’ll have to get an account so I can avoid copy/paste errors.
Yeah, Jack, a closer look at Soriano/Edmonds over their 33-35 age seasons shows just how MUCH better Edmonds was. I can’t remember the numbers I looked at earlier, but I think it was 156 OPS+ for Edmonds and 101+ for Soriano. About 56 fielding runs for Edmonds and -1 for Soriano. -5 batting runs for Soriano and about 120 for Edmonds.
I don’t think the Soriano/Crawford comp is a bad one at the time they signed their contracts. From age 23-30, Soriano hit .280/.325/.510. All but one year of that was in the AL. From 20-28 Crawford hit .296/.337/.444. Their isolated discipline was about the same. Soriano hit for a lot more power. Crawford stole 409 bases to Soriano’s 210. Soriano was the better hitter by quite a bit. Crawford was the better defender by quite a bit.
Overall the two are somewhat similar. The biggest difference is that Crawford is left handed and 2 years younger.
[quote name=ACT]One of these days, I’ll have to get an account so I can avoid copy/paste errors.[/quote]It’ll take you 30 seconds or less to set one up. But I guess I can’t tell you what to do.
[quote name=josh]Rick Rolled![/quote]What I linked to is like a million times worse than a Rick Roll. I would never willingly do that to someone. Trust me.
[quote name=ACT]One of these days, I’ll have to get an account so I can avoid copy/paste errors.[/quote](dying laughing) it’s pretty simple. Takes less than a minute. I promise I will never email you, but I don’t know about Berselius. (dying laughing)
[quote name=ACT]One of these days, I’ll have to get an account so I can avoid copy/paste errors.[/quote]It was amusing for me.
Interesting:
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/11/owners-players-union-discussing-possible-type-a-solutions.html
I’d also add another big difference is that Crawford has relied on very high BABIP’s to post the slightly better than league average numbers in his career at the plate. Soriano’s was .306 through age 30. The reality here is that neither player was worth the contract they signed. We could argue about which one is more overpaid, but it’s just not worth it. Both players were a leg injury away from becoming useless when they signed. Both players relied on one aspect of their game to provide significant value (defense for Crawford and power for Soriano). Defense peaks earlier.
[quote name=josh]It was amusing for me.[/quote]Amusing, but wrong.
[quote name=mb21](dying laughing) it’s pretty simple. Takes less than a minute. I promise I will never email you, but I don’t know about Berselius. (dying laughing)[/quote]However, by signing up, you do agree that any of us can show up at your house unannounced and you must give us lodging for the night, as well as two comely lasses of virtue true.
[quote name=mb21]I disabled that now so how’s it look now?[/quote]Works great. Sorry to all those who loved the theriot tootblan/unicorn/old [W]ay of life footer
[quote name=mb21]I’d also add another big difference is that Crawford has relied on very high BABIP’s to post the slightly better than league average numbers in his career at the plate. Soriano’s was .306 through age 30. The reality here is that neither player was worth the contract they signed. We could argue about which one is more overpaid, but it’s just not worth it. Both players were a leg injury away from becoming useless when they signed. Both players relied on one aspect of their game to provide significant value (defense for Crawford and power for Soriano). Defense peaks earlier.[/quote]I wonder if Sori could hit 30 again. He managed to be relatively valuable in 2010. I wonder if that was a fluke, or if he could do it again. What did Lou know about unlocking the Sori secret?
[quote name=Jack Nugent]One more thing though– are we still on this Alfonso Soriano v. Carl Crawford comp?
Honestly… I just don’t get this. These guys just are. not. similar.[/quote]
The comparison hinges on whether or not you think Soriano was a positive contributer on defense in LF before his legs were ruined. Soriano was older but also coming off a higher level true talent wise.
[quote name=WaLi]Works great. Sorry to all those who loved the theriot tootblan/unicorn/old [W]ay of life footer
[/quote]At first I thought it was just you, but since there was at least one other something had to be done. Hopefully we can put those back up when we upgrade the site.
[quote name=mb21](dying laughing) it’s pretty simple. Takes less than a minute. I promise I will never email you, but I don’t know about Berselius. (dying laughing)[/quote]
I won’t email you, I’ll just show up at your house and start peeing all over the place.
Yeah, but that isn’t what B-Ref’s similarity scores say, which is why I asked. I think he basically said that his Similarity Scores disagree with B-Ref’s version and his are better without actually saying it.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/11/royals-interested-in-carlos-zambrano.html
My guess is that his scores weight recent performance higher than the ones on Bref.
[quote name=Berselius]http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/11/royals-interested-in-carlos-zambrano.html[/quote]Translation: Royals interested in the Cubs paying Carlos Zambrano to pitch for the Royals.
That would be nice if he ended up in KC. I’d make sure to get over there to see a few of his starts.
[quote name=mb21]What I thought was most interesting was when he mentioned that the Cubs had at least a couple progressive analysts already employed (probably more). I can’t help but think that the media is blind to this, which isn’t at all surprising.[/quote]
I’m betting that these people are consultants or something. As far as we’ve always known Wasserstrom and Kaplan were their only stat guys.
A second article from today that suggests the compensation system is going to get a fixin’, but I wonder if this year’s free agents will be grandfathered in to the last system.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/a-recipe-for-competitive-imbalance/
[quote name=Rice Cube]A second article from today that suggests the compensation system is going to get a fixin’, but I wonder if this year’s free agents will be grandfathered in to the last system.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/a-recipe-for-competitive-imbalance//quoteWhen does the CBA officially end? I would think whatever has already happened would be unaffected. Since they’ve already done the Type A/Type B stuff, that would still be effective.
[quote name=josh]When does the CBA officially end? I would think whatever has already happened would be unaffected. Since they’ve already done the Type A/Type B stuff, that would still be effective.[/quote]Right, but if they change the way the compensation works and a free agent is signed after the new CBA takes effect, they’d have to be grandfathered in or else teams might flip out because one set of transactions operated under different rules than another. I think the current CBA ends in mid-December, would have to look that up.
[quote name=Rice Cube]Right, but if they change the way the compensation works and a free agent is signed after the new CBA takes effect, they’d have to be grandfathered in or else teams might flip out because one set of transactions operated under different rules than another. I think the current CBA ends in mid-December, would have to look that up.[/quote]That’s what I’m saying, too. That process has already started, so you can’t change that.
[quote name=josh]That’s what I’m saying, too. That process has already started, so you can’t change that.[/quote]So, automatically grandfathered? That makes stuff less complicated.
[quote name=mb21]At first I thought it was just you, but since there was at least one other something had to be done. Hopefully we can put those back up when we upgrade the site.[/quote]The Superfriends stay at the bottom. Not sure why they are different. Speaking of which, who did the Albino replace?
[quote name=WaLi]The Superfriends stay at the bottom. Not sure why they are different. Speaking of which, who did the Albino replace?[/quote]A Rickett.
[quote name=josh]A Rickett.[/quote]Oh, the bald Tom. Pete was it?
[quote name=Rice Cube]So, automatically grandfathered? That makes stuff less complicated.[/quote]I guess I see it as affecting the teams as well as the players. Really the teams more than the players if they enact it before any type As etc sign, since the team made an arbitration decision based on that. I guess I see grandfathered as giving the players a pass, this is more like keeping them in purgatory. I think I’m ocd.
[quote name=josh]I guess I see it as affecting the teams as well as the players. Really the teams more than the players if they enact it before any type As etc sign, since the team made an arbitration decision based on that. I guess I see grandfathered as giving the players a pass, this is more like keeping them in purgatory. I think I’m ocd.[/quote]I think I was looking at it from the team’s point of view because they want to be compensated. The players don’t care because someone is likely to pay them some amount of money and they don’t have any hand in the compensation, at least I don’t think so. The amount of time spent in purgatory would depend on the compensation that they would agree upon in the new CBA.
What does Gregg Maddux actually do for the Cubs? According to wikipedia, he is in charge of developing a pitching style throughout the organization. Does that mean a pitching philosophy or like mechanical stuff? Or are they just making shit up on the ‘pedia?
[quote name=josh]What does Gregg Maddux actually do for the Cubs? According to wikipedia, he is in charge of developing a pitching style throughout the organization. Does that mean a pitching philosophy or like mechanical stuff? Or are they just making shit up on the ‘pedia?[/quote]He is in charge of golf and dick jokes.
[quote name=Aisle424]He is in charge of golf and dick jokes.[/quote]Has he come up with any good ones or what?
[quote name=Berselius]The comparison hinges on whether or not you think Soriano was a positive contributer on defense in LF before his legs were ruined. Soriano was older but also coming off a higher level true talent wise.[/quote]
Alfonso Soriano is a designated hitter who, to the detriment of his employers, has been forced to masquerade as a defender for his entire career. He’s a right handed, contact-challenged hitter whose value has been mostly derived from his ability to hit for power.
Carl Crawford is left-handed, and combines tremendous speed and contact skills to hit for high averages (and BABIPs, unsurprisingly) while contributing only modestly in the power department. Furthermore, Crawford was probably an elite defensive outfielder the day he signed his first professional contract. At the very least, we know he’s good enough that he’s never been asked to change positions, unlike Soriano, who only converted to the outfield in his 30s.
The similarities really begin and end with their current defensive homes, and respective triple-slash lines, neither of which hardly tells us anything at all. And I suppose you could look at Soriano’s past base stealing prowess and devine a loose similarity in that regard, but even then, we’re looking at two very, very different animals. Save for 2011, Crawford has been an elite base stealer his entire career; in his prime Soriano could run, but not nearly as well as Crawford.
I mean… even physically these guys just aren’t at all similar. I’m dipping into subjectivity here, but when you compare their respective swings, and even just their body types, it’s tough to find any similarities.
I am 100% all ears if anyone wants to try and illuminate some similarities I might be missing. Really, I am. But to be perfectly honest, I’m really surprised this discussion has had any sort of traction here.
[quote name=josh]Has he come up with any good ones or what?[/quote]
.
[quote name=Jack Nugent]Alfonso Soriano is a designated hitter who, to the detriment of his employers, has been forced to masquerade as a defender for his entire career. He’s a right handed, contact-challenged hitter whose value has been mostly derived from his ability to hit for power.
Carl Crawford is left-handed, and combines tremendous speed and contact skills to hit for high averages (and BABIPs, unsurprisingly) while contributing only modestly in the power department. Furthermore, Crawford was probably an elite defensive outfielder the day he signed his first professional contract. At the very least, we know he’s good enough that he’s never been asked to change positions, unlike Soriano, who only converted to the outfield in his 30s.
The similarities really begin and end with their current defensive homes, and respective triple-slash lines, neither of which hardly tells us anything at all. And I suppose you could look at Soriano’s past base stealing prowess and devine a loose similarity in that regard, but even then, we’re looking at two very, very different animals. Save for 2011, Crawford has been an elite base stealer his entire career; in his prime Soriano could run, but not nearly as well as Crawford.
I mean… even physically these guys just aren’t at all similar. I’m dipping into subjectivity here, but when you compare their respective swings, and even just their body types, it’s tough to find any similarities.
I am 100% all ears if anyone wants to try and illuminate some similarities I might be missing. Really, I am. But to be perfectly honest, I’m really surprised this discussion has had any sort of traction here.[/quote]I never understood why Crawford played left instead of center. If speed is one of his primary attributes, why hasn’t he been manning center?
[quote name=mb21]Yeah, Jack, a closer look at Soriano/Edmonds over their 33-35 age seasons shows just how MUCH better Edmonds was. I can’t remember the numbers I looked at earlier, but I think it was 156 OPS+ for Edmonds and 101+ for Soriano. About 56 fielding runs for Edmonds and -1 for Soriano. -5 batting runs for Soriano and about 120 for Edmonds.
I don’t think the Soriano/Crawford comp is a bad one at the time they signed their contracts. From age 23-30, Soriano hit .280/.325/.510. All but one year of that was in the AL. From 20-28 Crawford hit .296/.337/.444. Their isolated discipline was about the same. Soriano hit for a lot more power. Crawford stole 409 bases to Soriano’s 210. Soriano was the better hitter by quite a bit. Crawford was the better defender by quite a bit.
Overall the two are somewhat similar. The biggest difference is that Crawford is left handed and 2 years younger.[/quote]
To me, this looks like adding up a bunch of differences between them, and then concluding that they are, or were at some point similar. Hell– those triple slash lines aren’t even eerily similar by any means. Obviously, the batting average and OBP figures are close, but what the hell does that really tell us? I’m sure it says something, but not necessarily that they were similar players.
[quote name=Jack Nugent]
I am 100% all ears if anyone wants to try and illuminate some similarities I might be missing. Really, I am. But to be perfectly honest, I’m really surprised this discussion has had any sort of traction here.[/quote]
To reiterate, the comparison hinges on whether or not you think Soriano was a positive contributer on defense in LF before his legs were ruined. Clearly we disagree.
Also– and this is huge in my opinion– can we please, please have the good sense to acknowledge that Crawford is just one year into a seven-year agreement with the Red Sox? Look, the guy had a bad year. Happens all the time to good players. Not consistently, otherwise we obviously wouldn’t be talking about a good player anymore, but you can look around and spot good players who’ve randomly put in bad years. But can we at least wait for one more year to go by before we declare Carl Crawford a poor investment? This is something that people are doing everywhere and it’s entirely possible that those people could be made to look foolish a year from now.
[quote name=Jack Nugent]Also– and this is huge in my opinion– can we please, please have the good sense to acknowledge that Crawford is just one year into a seven-year agreement with the Red Sox? Look, the guy had a bad year. Happens all the time to good players. Not consistently, otherwise we obviously wouldn’t be talking about a good player anymore, but you can look around and spot good players who’ve randomly put in bad years. But can we at least wait for one more year to go by before we declare Carl Crawford a poor investment? This is something that people are doing everywhere and it’s entirely possible that those people could be made to look foolish a year from now.[/quote]
Jack, we wrote all that stuff about Soriano vs Crawford before Crawford even played a regular season game for the Red Sox.
The point is that you make that evaluation based on what you know at the time. If the Cubs sign Albert Pujols to a 5/40 deal this offseason and he blows out his knee in spring training or is hit by a bus, it’s still a great deal.
[quote name=Berselius]To reiterate, the comparison hinges on whether or not you think Soriano was a positive contributer on defense in LF before his legs were ruined. Clearly we disagree.[/quote]
In my opinion, even if we made the false assumption that Soriano was a positive contributor on defense for a short period of time, that wouldn’t really make up for the other obvious differences between them. Just my opinion though.
And I’ll just add this– for his first couple years in LF, Soriano did make a lot of nice plays with his arm. But the league wised up, and stopped challenging him, even though they were perfectly justified in doing so immediately upon his transition. But even if you think all the OF assists helped compensate for his other defensive shortcomings, I don’t think that means he’s all of a sudden a good comp for Carl Crawford, who obviously contributes on defense in a much, much different fashion.
[quote name=Berselius]To reiterate, the comparison hinges on whether or not you think Soriano was a positive contributer on defense in LF before his legs were ruined. Clearly we disagree.[/quote]He had three years of positive UZR in left, starting with the Nats, who first stuck him there. But man, two of those years are stupid high. He did have a disproportionately high number of outfield assists in 2007. He has a strong arm, which maybe gives him a leg up over Carl. I have never really seen Carl play, so I don’t know if he looks like he knows what he is doing. Sori lately sure doesn’t. But I think Sori was more well-rounded at the time he signed than he is now, but I don’t really see them as a similar players either. Similar value, maybe, but acquiring it by entirely different means.
[quote name=Berselius]Jack, we wrote all that stuff about Soriano vs Crawford before Crawford even played a regular season game for the Red Sox.[/quote]
Right– I didn’t necessarily mean that the snap judgement on Crawford factors into the Soriano debate. I just mean in general, I think people are seriously overreacting to Crawford’s 2011.
[quote name=Berselius]The point is that you make that evaluation based on what you know at the time. If the Cubs sign Albert Pujols to a 5/40 deal this offseason and he blows out his knee in spring training or is hit by a bus, it’s still a great deal.[/quote]Although if he blew his knew, you’d have to wonder why no one offered him more, and if your medical staff missed a glaring problem.
[quote name=Jack Nugent]To me, this looks like adding up a bunch of differences between them, and then concluding that they are, or were at some point similar. Hell– those triple slash lines aren’t even eerily similar by any means. Obviously, the batting average and OBP figures are close, but what the hell does that really tell us? I’m sure it says something, but not necessarily that they were similar players.[/quote]I think you’re looking for a perfect match when one obviously doesn’t exist.
You can’t just say the avg/obp is close and then ignore it. It’s a similarity that cannot be thrown out because you think other things show otherwise. When talking about similar players we list what is similar and where they are different.
Similarities
batting average
OBP
isolated discipline
above average BABIP
speed
athleticism
similar walk rate
both excel at Bref’s power/speed combo score
betting the difference in SB isn’t significant when you consider Soriano has 300 more extra base hits than Crawford
Prior to big contracts, Crawford 81% success rate SB, Soriano 78%
Differences
Defense
Isolated Power
Soriano was 2 years older at the time of the ocntracts
Crawford a better baserunner
Higher babip for Crawford
Of course there are differences, but we can’t ignore all they have in common in an effort to highlight the differences.
[quote name=Berselius]Jack, we wrote all that stuff about Soriano vs Crawford before Crawford even played a regular season game for the Red Sox.[/quote]Yeah, the comparisons were made at the time Crawford signed a contract. I haven’t even bothered to include his year with the Red Sox in the stats I’ve shown because it’s not relevant.
[quote name=Jack Nugent]In my opinion, even if we made the false assumption that Soriano was a positive contributor on defense for a short period of time, that wouldn’t really make up for the other obvious differences between them. Just my opinion though.
And I’ll just add this– for his first couple years in LF, Soriano did make a lot of nice plays with his arm. But the league wised up, and stopped challenging him, even though they were perfectly justified in doing so immediately upon his transition. But even if you think all the OF assists helped compensate for his other defensive shortcomings, I don’t think that means he’s all of a sudden a good comp for Carl Crawford, who obviously contributes on defense in a much, much different fashion.[/quote]
I’m not trying to say that he was the elite defender that Crawford is. Just that he wasn’t a butcher out there, and his legs made up for his bad instincts. They’re both the kind of players where if they lose a step it hurts their value a lot more than statues like Raul Ibanez
[quote name=Jack Nugent]Right– I didn’t necessarily mean that the snap judgement on Crawford factors into the Soriano debate. I just mean in general, I think people are seriously overreacting to Crawford’s 2011.[/quote]I think they’re overreacting too, but this is an entirely different discussion. Writing about Crawford’s 2011 and sample size is just a separate issue. This was written by Berselius and is worth reading just because he used the word purloining: http://www.obstructedview.net/articles/major-league-baseball/carl-crawfords-2011-season.html
the conclusion is clear that 2011 is not enough to make a judgment about the contract, but that it is yet another piece of information that can’t necessarily be ignored. Crawford’s true talent level is lower as a result of his 2011 season. That can easily change though he’s on the wrong side of the aging curve.
To be honest, I’m not that interested in discussing his 2011 season because it changes the discussion.
Are the two players identical? No. It’s doubtful any two players are, but they have enough similarities that it is a useful comparison. I think most people would tell you even today if you have two equally talented players going forward and one is a great defender while the other has great power, the best option is to go with the guy with power. Even as Soriano’s skills have declined into nothingness, he still hits for power.
http://www.csnchicago.com/video
That Dale Sveum, he no talk so good.
[quote name=fang2415]http://www.csnchicago.com/video
That Dale Sveum, he no talk so good.[/quote]Second Rickroll today.
[quote name=mb21]I think you’re looking for a perfect match when one obviously doesn’t exist.
You can’t just say the avg/obp is close and then ignore it. It’s a similarity that cannot be thrown out because you think other things show otherwise. When talking about similar players we list what is similar and where they are different.
Similarities
batting average
OBP
isolated discipline
above average BABIP
speed
athleticism
similar walk rate
both excel at Bref’s power/speed combo score
betting the difference in SB isn’t significant when you consider Soriano has 300 more extra base hits than Crawford
Prior to big contracts, Crawford 81% success rate SB, Soriano 78%
Differences
Defense
Isolated Power
Soriano was 2 years older at the time of the ocntracts
Crawford a better baserunner
Higher babip for Crawford
Of course there are differences, but we can’t ignore all they have in common in an effort to highlight the differences.[/quote]
I would argue that hitting for similar averages hardly suggests two players are the least bit similar. Miguel Cabrera led the majors with a .344 average. Jose Reyes was a few ticks behind him at .337. Are they similar players? Michael Young also hit .338. Is he similar to either of those two players? Starlin Castro his .307 this year. David Ortiz hit .309. Are they similar players?
Three other items in your list– “OBP”, “isolated discipline”, and “similar walk rates” all really speak to just one legitimate similarity between the two players– they are aggressive hitters who don’t walk a whole lot. That is a similarity between the two I think everyone is aware of.
“Speed” and “athleticism”: One player was fast. The other player is still one of the very fastest players in baseball. Athleticism is a super subjective measure– not that there’s anything inherently wrong with dipping into subjectivity, but are they even all that comparably athletic? Maybe. I’m not convinced of that though.
Both excel in Bref’s power/speed score… so what? Isn’t it glaringly obvious how different their respective methods of arriving there are? To me, this isn’t really indicative of a similarity between them at all. At one point, they both contributed to varying degrees in the power and speed departments. But in each individual category, they’re actually quite dissimilar. We’ve established this.
“betting the difference in SB isn’t significant when you consider Soriano has 300 more extra base hits than Crawford…”— this is a difference between the two players that is inappropriately filed under a list of similarities.
Comparable stolen base success rates– how similar does this really suggest they are? You don’t think we could come up with a laundry list of players with similar, if not identical SB success rates that aren’t at all similar ballplayers?
I dont[quote name=mb21]I think they’re overreacting too, but this is an entirely different discussion. Writing about Crawford’s 2011 and sample size is just a separate issue. This was written by Berselius and is worth reading just because he used the word purloining: http://www.obstructedview.net/articles/major-league-baseball/carl-crawfords-2011-season.html
I agree with everything here, except where you say Soriano v. Crawford is a useful comparison.
the conclusion is clear that 2011 is not enough to make a judgment about the contract, but that it is yet another piece of information that can’t necessarily be ignored. Crawford’s true talent level is lower as a result of his 2011 season. That can easily change though he’s on the wrong side of the aging curve.
To be honest, I’m not that interested in discussing his 2011 season because it changes the discussion.
Are the two players identical? No. It’s doubtful any two players are, but they have enough similarities that it is a useful comparison. I think most people would tell you even today if you have two equally talented players going forward and one is a great defender while the other has great power, the best option is to go with the guy with power. Even as Soriano’s skills have declined into nothingness, he still hits for power.[/quote]
Similarities
Not white
Both play baseball
Both are OF
Take showers at least weekly
Differences
Mom
Dad
Teams played for
Sorry. Screwed up that comment. Meant to just quote your previous comment and add that I agree with everything in it except where you say Soriano v. Carl Crawford is a useful comparison.
In my opinion, they are immensely different ballplayers. Enough so that a comparison between the two isn’t really instructive at all.
I like comparing Jose Canseco and Mark Macgwire. Two very different ball players who took steroids in very similar ways.
[quote name=josh]I like comparing Jose Canseco and Mark Macgwire. Two very different ball players who took steroids in very similar ways.[/quote]I like bitching about how it’s pointless to compare things. For example, when looking for a new car, my friend wanted to compare a Taurus and an Accord. I chastised him for hours for waisting his time. They are immensely different cars. Enough so that a comparison between the two isn’t really instructive at all.
[quote name=WenningtonsGorillaCock]I like bitching about how it’s pointless to compare things. For example, when looking for a new car, my friend wanted to compare a Taurus and an Accord. I chastised him for hours for waisting his time. They are immensely different cars. Enough so that a comparison between the two isn’t really instructive at all.[/quote]I like non sequiturs. They frog-pillow.
[quote name=fang2415]http://www.csnchicago.com/video
That Dale Sveum, he no talk so good.[/quote]
So what’s up with Mike Maddux?
[quote name=josh]I like non sequiturs. They frog-pillow.[/quote]Space shuttle.
http://www.sowhatsupwithmikemaddux.co.uk
.co.uk (dying laughing)
Royals interested in Z: http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/7208874/gm-dayton-moore-kansas-city-royals-be-interested-carlos-zambrano-trade
Why do they mention a no-trade clause for Z? Doesn’t he have 10-5 rights?
[quote name=WenningtonsGorillaCock]I like bitching about how it’s pointless to compare things. For example, when looking for a new car, my friend wanted to compare a Taurus and an Accord. I chastised him for hours for waisting his time. They are immensely different cars. Enough so that a comparison between the two isn’t really instructive at all.[/quote]I can’t argue with you today.
[quote name=ACT]Why do they mention a no-trade clause for Z? Doesn’t he have 10-5 rights?[/quote]Yup. Article and various comments I’ve read re: the Z–>Royals situation suggest that the Royals would pretty much only take a risk on Z if he’s released.
[quote name=ACT]Why do they mention a no-trade clause for Z? Doesn’t he have 10-5 rights?[/quote]He just reached 10 years service time. B-Ref has him at 10.022. So unless there is some debate about his time on the DQ list last year, he does have 10-5 rights.
But if he doesn’t, he has the NTC in the contract. Either way, he can totally veto a trade to KC.
[quote name=josh]Second Rickroll today.[/quote]Stupid CSN’s site apparently doesn’t have direct links to their videos. Since, you know, they wouldn’t want people to be able to tell each other about their content.
Anyway, to summarize the video: That Dale Sveum, he no talk so good.
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/08/lance-berkman-astros-moving-to-al-would-be-a-travesty/
Fat Elvis doesn’t want Astros –> AL
Wasn’t there going to be compensation for Theo? Who thinks that just gets swept under the rug indefinitely?
[quote name=josh]Wasn’t there going to be compensation for Theo? Who thinks that just gets swept under the rug indefinitely?[/quote]The Cubs are probably hoping the Red Sox will just forget about it if they take long enough.
I myself had almost forgotten about the compensation issue until that reminder.
[quote name=ACT]Royals interested in Z: http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/7208874/gm-dayton-moore-kansas-city-royals-be-interested-carlos-zambrano-trade/quoteIsn't what the Royals are doing called tampering?
[quote name=ACT]Why do they mention a no-trade clause for Z? Doesn’t he have 10-5 rights?[/quote]Yes. The beat writers love to mention the no-trade clause because fans associate it negatively with Hendry. Lee, Ramirez, Zambrano and Dempster all had 10-5 trade rights.
[quote name=fang2415]Stupid CSN’s site apparently doesn’t have direct links to their videos. Since, you know, they wouldn’t want people to be able to tell each other about their content.
Anyway, to summarize the video: That Dale Sveum, he no talk so good.[/quote]I watched a video from him this morning and didn’t think it was that bad.
[quote name=mb21]Isn’t what the Royals are doing called tampering?[/quote]It sounds like he was answering kind of generally about the possibility. He didn’t meet with Z or anything, just answered some questions on a radio show.
[quote name=mb21]Isn’t what the Royals are doing called tampering?[/quote]Hendry would never answer those kind of questions, saying he couldn’t discuss players who had contracts with other teams.
[quote name=Suburban kid 22]Hendry would never answer those kind of questions, saying he couldn’t discuss players who had contracts with other teams.[/quote]Yeah, that’s the rule. You can’t discuss players who are under contract with another team. It’s tampering. I don’t see how what Moore has said isn’t tampering.
Here are the rules:
.
[quote name=mb21]Here are the rules:
.[/quote]That says “negotiations or dealings” not “general comments regarding.” They can’t go up to Z and offer him $1 million if he agrees to be traded, but they can say “We are looking at Z has a possibility” the same way GMs do all the time every year.
Sandy Alomar, Jr. to interview for Cubs job this week: http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/7209082/sandy-alomar-jr-talk-chicago-cubs-boston-red-sox-interview-source-says
I seem to recall a couple of years ago a GM going off on how he’d never sign Adam Dunn. I remember he talked about other players he was considering in that same interview. Maybe it’s frowned upon, and discussing the money probably was walking a line. But generally saying they’d be interested/not interested I don’t think is a big deal.
[quote name=josh]That says “negotiations or dealings” not “general comments regarding.” They can’t go up to Z and offer him $1 million if he agrees to be traded, but they can say “We are looking at Z has a possibility” the same way GMs do all the time every year.[/quote]GMs say it when the player isn’t under contract, but they don’t say it when the player is under contract by another team.
I know most GMs see it the way i do because they never talk about other team’s players, but this seems like tampering to me.
[quote name=josh]I seem to recall a couple of years ago a GM going off on how he’d never sign Adam Dunn. I remember he talked about other players he was considering in that same interview. Maybe it’s frowned upon, and discussing the money probably was walking a line. But generally saying they’d be interested/not interested I don’t think is a big deal.[/quote]If the player is a free agent it’s a different story. Can you think of any player this offseason who is under contract by another team that has been spoken about openly by another team?
[quote name=mb21]If the player is a free agent it’s a different story. Can you think of any player this offseason who is under contract by another team that has been spoken about openly by another team?[/quote]Yeah, I think Dunn was about to be a free agent, now that you mention it. I still don’t think it would qualify, legally, as tampering, but probably not advisable, definitely presumptuous. Yeah, I can see your point. I wonder if he gets a call from Joe T.
From a GM:
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071001&content_id=2243692&vkey=news_min&fext=.jsp&c_id=min
[quote name=mb21]I know most GMs see it the way i do because they never talk about other team’s players, but this seems like tampering to me.[/quote]
He’s backtracking. Via Carrie Muskat:
http://muskat.mlblogs.com/2011/11/08/118-is-there-a-market-for-big-z/
[quote name=mb21]From a GM:
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071001&content_id=2243692&vkey=news_min&fext=.jsp&c_id=min/quoteWell, there you go. I wonder if there will be any fallout.
Heavy D —-> dead
Here’s what Moore said:
I don’t know how that isn’t tampering.
It doesn’t really matter. Selig never enforces it, but that’s about as bad as I’ve seen from any GM over the last 7 or 8 years. I remember Steinbrenner (Hank, I think) talking openly about Santana when the Twins were getting ready to trade him.
[quote name=Aisle424]http://muskat.mlblogs.com/2011/11/08/118-is-there-a-market-for-big-z/[/quote]Was he wearing casts on his thumbs when he said that? Was Torre standing behind him smiling smugly?
[quote name=Aisle424]http://muskat.mlblogs.com/2011/11/08/118-is-there-a-market-for-big-z/[/quote](dying laughing) he’s still tampering.
[quote name=mb21]Here’s what Moore said:
I don’t know how that isn’t tampering.
It doesn’t really matter. Selig never enforces it, but that’s about as bad as I’ve seen from any GM over the last 7 or 8 years. I remember Steinbrenner (Hank, I think) talking openly about Santana when the Twins were getting ready to trade him.[/quote]If he’s just left it at “we’ll explore any possibilities, without getting specific. You’d think a GM would be used to talking to the press.
Consider what Theo said about Sandberg when asked at his initial press conference. Something like, “he’s employed by the Phillies so we can’t talk about him.”
Apparently those rules don’t apply to Dayton Moore.
[quote name=josh]If he’s just left it at “we’ll explore any possibilities, without getting specific. You’d think a GM would be used to talking to the press.[/quote]It’s an easy question to avoid. “We’ll consider any option that presents itself and if our team can make a strong case for acquiring any player, we’d have to look into it. But right now we can’t talk about players employed by other teams. The idea to trade for Jonathon Sanchez was brought to our attention the other day, we had a long and productive discussion and move forward in an effort to acquire him. That will be our process for any player.”
You’re welcome, Dayton.
[quote name=mb21]Consider what Theo said about Sandberg when asked at his initial press conference. Something like, “he’s employed by the Phillies so we can’t talk about him.”
Apparently those rules don’t apply to Dayton Moore.[/quote]He can run his mouth as much as he wants. Best case scenario is the Cubs will get some sort of compensation. Worst case is that Zambrano has to come out and actually say he isn’t going to Kansas City for any reason.
[quote name=Aisle424]He can run his mouth as much as he wants. Best case scenario is the Cubs will get some sort of compensation. Worst case is that Zambrano has to come out and actually say he isn’t going to Kansas City for any reason.[/quote]Yeah, it’s just odd that you hear a GM talk like this on two different occasions. The only other time I can think of was Steinbrenner/Santana. Nothing came of that either.
[quote name=mb21]Yeah, it’s just odd that you hear a GM talk like this on two different occasions. The only other time I can think of was Steinbrenner/Santana. Nothing came of that either.[/quote]Yet there was a big deal made about Ozzie and tampering from Florida that nobody had heard about. There must be a line that Florida crossed that wasn’t public.
[quote name=Aisle424]Yet there was a big deal made about Ozzie and tampering from Florida that nobody had heard about. There must be a line that Florida crossed that wasn’t public.[/quote]They apparently had a deal for him to manage before the White Sox had released him. Ozzie wrote something about signing a contract with the Marlins on his website or something before he had even been released.
I can see why this is tampering (because of Z’s no-trade rights) but this doesn’t bother me at all. IMHO I find tampering a much bigger deal when it comes to a player that is soon to find himself not under contract. Their GM obviously never said it, but everyone knew at the time Ramirez signed his extension with the Cubs that LAA was prepared to break the bank to get him.
http://www.sbnation.com/ncaa-football/2011/11/8/2548178/jerry-sandusky-investigation-number-of-alleged-victims-now-close-to
There are no words.
[quote name=Berselius]http://www.sbnation.com/ncaa-football/2011/11/8/2548178/jerry-sandusky-investigation-number-of-alleged-victims-now-close-to
There are no words.[/quote]How could he get away with that for so long? That’s unfathomable.
[quote name=Berselius]I can see why this is tampering (because of Z’s no-trade rights) but this doesn’t bother me at all. IMHO I find tampering a much bigger deal when it comes to a player that is soon to find himself not under contract. Their GM obviously never said it, but everyone knew at the time Ramirez signed his extension with the Cubs that LAA was prepared to break the bank to get him.[/quote]Yeah I don’t care either. I don’t even care if it’s a week before a player becomes eligible to sign a contract with another team. It’s just one of those rules and often talked about by GMs, but when it happens nobody does shit.
[quote name=Rice Cube]How could he get away with that for so long? That’s unfathomable.[/quote]We say that every time someone has gotten away with awful crimes for years. I have a hard time believing this didn’t start much earlier than the first report. I don’t think someone wakes up in 1994 and thinks to himself, “hey, you know what sounds like a good idea? Having sex with kids.” Pretty sure that doesn’t happen. 20 victims already. We can safely say that’s at least 40 considering how few people come forward. We’ll probably learn about more cases. This is just going to get uglier.
I just read an article about how the Big Ten should kick PSU out. I agree. Get them the fuck out of the conference.
Whoa, Poz was in the middle of writing a book about Paterno.
http://joeposnanski.si.com/2011/11/06/darkness/?sct=hp_t12_a2&eref=sihp
[quote name=mb21]We say that every time someone has gotten away with awful crimes for years. I have a hard time believing this didn’t start much earlier than the first report. I don’t think someone wakes up in 1994 and thinks to himself, “hey, you know what sounds like a good idea? Having sex with kids.” Pretty sure that doesn’t happen. 20 victims already. We can safely say that’s at least 40 considering how few people come forward. We’ll probably learn about more cases. This is just going to get uglier.
I just read an article about how the Big Ten should kick PSU out. I agree. Get them the fuck out of the conference.[/quote]I think the NCAA should vacate very achievement of the team while Sandusky was employed by the university.
Also, he started this “charity” as his molestation grab bag in 1977. There will be hundreds of victims come forward before this is over.
[quote name=mb21]We say that every time someone has gotten away with awful crimes for years. I have a hard time believing this didn’t start much earlier than the first report. I don’t think someone wakes up in 1994 and thinks to himself, “hey, you know what sounds like a good idea? Having sex with kids.” Pretty sure that doesn’t happen. 20 victims already. We can safely say that’s at least 40 considering how few people come forward. We’ll probably learn about more cases. This is just going to get uglier.
I just read an article about how the Big Ten should kick PSU out. I agree. Get them the fuck out of the conference.[/quote]
If nothing else, the NCAA needs to provide penalty-free transfers to current PSU scholarship athletes.
[quote name=Berselius]If nothing else, the NCAA needs to provide penalty-free transfers to current PSU scholarship athletes.[/quote]Yes. As well as for anyone who has signed a letter-of-intent.
Jack just made a great point on twitter
Marmol had the closer mentality in 2010, but lost it in 2011.
[quote name=ACT]Marmol had the closer mentality in 2010, but lost it in 2011.[/quote]
Irony.
Things students can be bothered to do: write lengthy emails bitching about grades.
Things the same students can’t be bothered to do: meet the minimum word requirement on a 500-word paper assignment.
[quote name=Berselius]Jack just made a great point on twitter[/quote]
I think this Madson deal is great news for the Cubs. I think they shoulda been motivated to deal Marmol even before this, but I don’t think anyone could have predicted that the Phillies would go nuts on a closer like this. Jonathan Papelbon has gotta get more money that Madson, right? Same with Heath Bell, no?
If things play out like that, then I’m crossing my fingers hoping Theo flips Marmol for a good player this offseason.
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Things students can be bothered to do: write lengthy emails bitching about grades.
Things the same students can’t be bothered to do: meet the minimum word requirement on a 500-word paper assignment.[/quote]Welcome to academia!
[quote name=Jack Nugent]
If things play out like that, then I’m crossing my fingers hoping Theo flips Marmol for Nolasco this offseason.[/quote]…and then flip him for Matt Cain.
Trade him for Joey Votto.
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I think the NCAA should vacate very achievement of the team while Sandusky was employed by the university.
Also, he started this “charity” as his molestation grab bag in 1977. There will be hundreds of victims come forward before this is over.[/quote]I don’t really care about the achievements that much. This is just so fucked up that what PSU has done on the field hasn’t even registered with me. I’d just kick them the fuck out of the NCAA. And yeah, every student needs to be given permission to transfer without risk of the NCAA being douchebags about it.
There won’t unfortunately be a death penalty for them, but there may as well be. That program is fucked. They were already going to have issues replacing Paterno. They hadn’t been and nor would they ever return to being what they were a couple decades ago. Losing Paterno would have been a step in the wrong direction anyway. This just fucks them over for so long I can’t imagine them ever being the national power they once were. They’re D-O-N-E. And I couldn’t be happier about it.
[quote name=Jack Nugent]I think this Madson deal is great news for the Cubs. I think they shoulda been motivated to deal Marmol even before this, but I don’t think anyone could have predicted that the Phillies would go nuts on a closer like this. Jonathan Papelbon has gotta get more money that Madson, right? Same with Heath Bell, no?
If things play out like that, then I’m crossing my fingers hoping Theo flips Marmol for a good player this offseason.[/quote]I would have traded him either way too, Jack. Marshall is at least as good and probably better. He also makes significantly less money.
It seems to me the market for closers is usually rather odd. Wouldn’t surprise me if Papelbon got more (probably will), but then it wouldn’t surprise me if few other relievers saw much money.
[quote name=mb21]I would have traded him either way too, Jack. Marshall is at least as good and probably better. He also makes significantly less money.
It seems to me the market for closers is usually rather odd. Wouldn’t surprise me if Papelbon got more (probably will), but then it wouldn’t surprise me if few other relievers saw much money.[/quote]So do the Cubs wait for Papelbon to sign to deal Marmol, or strike now while the iron is hot?
[quote name=Berselius]Whoa, Poz was in the middle of writing a book about Paterno.
http://joeposnanski.si.com/2011/11/06/darkness/?sct=hp_t12_a2&eref=sihp/quoteWonder if that book will ever get finished.
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]So do the Cubs wait for Papelbon to sign to deal Marmol, or strike now while the iron is hot?[/quote]I don’t think they actively try to trade Marmol, but after Papelbon is gone or teams move on from bidding, wouldn’t surprise me if some of them contacted the Cubs.
Ryno posted this earlier and figure it needs to be posted again
[quote name=ACT]If I remember correctly, I read a Baseball America panel a long time ago on which recent players should be in the HoF. All of the panelists thought Sandberg would get in except Keith Olbermann. His reasoning was that Ryno didn’t have a “defining moment.”[/quote](dying laughing)
^ …Sandberg Game?!
This just keeps getting worse.
[quote name=mb21]Wonder if that book will ever get finished.[/quote]
Definitely. The potential sales on that book just increased hundredfold.
[quote name=mb21]I don’t really care about the achievements that much. This is just so fucked up that what PSU has done on the field hasn’t even registered with me. I’d just kick them the fuck out of the NCAA. And yeah, every student needs to be given permission to transfer without risk of the NCAA being douchebags about it.
There won’t unfortunately be a death penalty for them, but there may as well be. That program is fucked. They were already going to have issues replacing Paterno. They hadn’t been and nor would they ever return to being what they were a couple decades ago. Losing Paterno would have been a step in the wrong direction anyway. This just fucks them over for so long I can’t imagine them ever being the national power they once were. They’re D-O-N-E. And I couldn’t be happier about it.[/quote]
They’re not going anywhere. They obviously have to clean house but Penn State fans are numerous and dedicated. FFS, there were reportedly hundreds of them outside Paterno’s house today chanting support.
[quote name=Berselius]They’re not going anywhere. They obviously have to clean house but Penn State fans are numerous and dedicated. FFS, there were reportedly hundreds of them outside Paterno’s house today chanting support.[/quote]I don’t think it matters how many fans there are. Who the hell is going to that school to play football? Over the last decade PSU has been a middle of the pack Big Ten team. Most people thought it would get a bit worse after Paterno left, which is one reason people believed he kept staying on. The days of one team dominating college football are over. Nebraska, PSU, Michigan, OSU, Alabama and others are never going to dominate year in and year out. It’s just a different game. Scholarship restrictions is a big reason why Nebraska and PSU aren’t as good as they once were. There’s simply no reason to believe either will ever return to those days.
I don’t think any of us really know how this is going to affect the athletic department long-term, but this is something we’ve never seen before. Never has anything in an athletic department so disgusting happened? We’re very likely to find out it’s been going on for decades. Not since the early 90s, but as MO said above, since the late 70s. We could see 100 people or more come forward.
The amount of money PSU is able to raise from alumni took a huge hit. PSU will be lucky to equal Iowa State in alumni donations. Who the fuck is going to want to have their money associated with that athletic department any time soon?
The story is just breaking. These coverups tend to get only worse and implicate only more people in positions of power. Those who were abused have yet to even file a civil lawsuit. PSU hasn’t settled any of these.
They’re fucked, yo.
Not sure if this is accurate, but MLB Network just said that Theo likes Alomar, Jr. while Jed like Maddux. Maybe they’re getting a divorce already. (dying laughing)
[quote name=Berselius]Definitely. The potential sales on that book just increased hundredfold.[/quote]That’s a good point, but I’d lose all interest in writing about Paterno after this.
Ken Rosenthal
@Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal
Source: Significant progress today in CBA talks. #MLB
[quote name=mb21]Not sure if this is accurate, but MLB Network just said that Theo likes Alomar, Jr. while Jed like Maddux. Maybe they’re getting a divorce already. (dying laughing)[/quote]
If that’s the case I would think Theo wins. I’m guessing he will have last say more times than not. Regardless of the “we are one big happy team” mantra they are peddling.
[quote name=mb21]Not sure if this is accurate, but MLB Network just said that Theo likes Alomar, Jr. while Jed like Maddux. Maybe they’re getting a divorce already. (dying laughing)[/quote]Have they even interviewed either of those yet?
I believe Maddux is today and Alomar, Jr. prior to week’s end.
Yeah, Maddux today and Alomar tomorrow or Friday.
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Things students can be bothered to do: write lengthy emails bitching about grades.
Things the same students can’t be bothered to do: meet the minimum word requirement on a 500-word paper assignment.[/quote]
I hated word requirements. If I can say what I need to say in 200 words, why do I have to put in 300 words of bullshit?
By the way, that’s a legit question. I don’t understand the purpose of word requirements. If someone turns in 100 subpar words, give them a subpar grade.
[quote name=Dr. Aneus Taint]I hated word requirements. If I can say what I need to say in 200 words, why do I have to put in 300 words of bullshit?
By the way, that’s a legit question. I don’t understand the purpose of word requirements. If someone turns in 100 subpar words, give them a subpar grade.[/quote]It’s a shame .gif’s haven’t made their way into printed form yet.
[quote name=WaLi]It’s a shame .gif’s haven’t made their way into printed form yet.[/quote]
I tried to do my reports in .gif form, by my myopic professors refused to accept them.
[quote name=Dr. Aneus Taint]I tried to do my reports in .gif form, by my myopic professors refused to accept them.[/quote]So print them bigger.
[quote name=Dr. Aneus Taint]I hated word requirements. If I can say what I need to say in 200 words, why do I have to put in 300 words of bullshit?
By the way, that’s a legit question. I don’t understand the purpose of word requirements. If someone turns in 100 subpar words, give them a subpar grade.[/quote]It’s sort of up to the prof to also give you a topic that benefits from 4 pages of exploration as opposed to 2. When I taught, I never worried about page requirements, but just gave that as sort of a guideline: in my experience the average writer will need about 500 words to adequately explore this topic. Something like that. 200 words can be filled with 90% bullshit, too. 500 words maybe forces the student to actively think about it. Otherwise, I’d agree that word counts aren’t that useful outside of newspapers.
[quote name=Dr. Aneus Taint]I hated word requirements. If I can say what I need to say in 200 words, why do I have to put in 300 words of bullshit?
By the way, that’s a legit question. I don’t understand the purpose of word requirements. If someone turns in 100 subpar words, give them a subpar grade.[/quote]
I had one Professor Doofus whose thing was to make us write short papers that filled an entire page with text — no margins or line spaces so it was literally a full block of text and it was a requirement to full up the page entirely. To make it even more fun, this was in the age of cheapass typewriters. I’d love to see the .gif you’d submit to that guy.
full page forest gif
[quote name=mb21]full page forest gif[/quote]
That’s probably at least 30 MB.
But does he understand the value of catchers giving clear signs?
http://www.indystar.com/article/20111109/SPORTS0605/111090320/Butler-s-Moneyball-Stats-add-to-game-preparation
[quote name=Suburban kid 22]I had one Professor Doofus whose thing was to make us write short papers that filled an entire page with text — no margins or line spaces so it was literally a full block of text and it was a requirement to full up the page entirely. To make it even more fun, this was in the age of cheapass typewriters. I’d love to see the .gif you’d submit to that guy.[/quote]
From the Cubs Inbox:
Darn. I was hoping they were firing up the bulldozers.
[quote name=josh]It’s sort of up to the prof to also give you a topic that benefits from 4 pages of exploration as opposed to 2. When I taught, I never worried about page requirements, but just gave that as sort of a guideline: in my experience the average writer will need about 500 words to adequately explore this topic. Something like that. 200 words can be filled with 90% bullshit, too. 500 words maybe forces the student to actively think about it. Otherwise, I’d agree that word counts aren’t that useful outside of newspapers.[/quote]
I agree with that.
My problem is that word requirements have taught us to water down our ideas. I think it would be more of a challenge to put a word cap on an assignment.
[quote name=Dr. Aneus Taint]I agree with that.
My problem is that word requirements have taught us to water down our ideas. I think it would be more of a challenge to put a word cap on an assignment.[/quote]I like that idea.
http://deadspin.com/5857771/
I don’t get this Penn State stuff. Is there definitive word that people in the department knew what Sandusky was doing and let it happen?
[quote name=josh]I don’t get this Penn State stuff. Is there definitive word that people in the department knew what Sandusky was doing and let it happen?[/quote]Yes.
I’m completely and utterly baffled by the actions of those PSU students last night.
[quote name=Berselius]Yes.[/quote]That’s messed up. Did they maybe think it was just not as bad as it really was? I’m just trying to wrap my head around it.
[quote name=josh]From the Cubs Inbox:
Darn. I was hoping they were firing up the bulldozers.[/quote]I don’t think the Cubs want to be murdered, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see a Jumbotron where the Toyota sign is, or on a rooftop that the Ricketts take over.
[quote name=josh]That’s messed up. Did they maybe think it was just not as bad as it really was? I’m just trying to wrap my head around it.[/quote]It was okay up until victim #19… *shakes head*
I’m not sure how much winning or respect that guy generated (I usually don’t pay attention to the Big Ten+Whatever) but it’s like the university staff collectively mailed their consciences somewhere else.
[quote name=josh]That’s messed up. Did they maybe think it was just not as bad as it really was? I’m just trying to wrap my head around it.[/quote]There’s a 23-page Grand Jury report you can read. PDF file: http://cbschicago.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/sandusky-grand-jury-presentment.pdf
Saw a headline that Joe Paterno will retire at the end of the season.
[quote name=josh]That’s messed up. Did they maybe think it was just not as bad as it really was? I’m just trying to wrap my head around it.[/quote]
There were multiple incidents in which at least some people in the administration were involved. The most damning one was certainly when Mike McQueary (who is now the WR coach) saw Sandusky having anal sex with a 10 year old in the showers. This is the incident that we know Paterno was informed about, as well as him informing his superiors who were named in the perjury charge. As far as I know it’s unclear how many specifics were given as the info worked its way up the chain, but the threshold is pretty small for what you need to know to act upon it. Even if all they heard was that Sandusky was showering with kids and vague references to impropriety, that’s something you need to inform the police about. I can’t really speak to the legality of the administration’s actions, because the legal burden of proof is very high (as it should be), but it’s clear that there was an enormous breach of ethics among many, many people in the athletic and police departments.
[quote name=Rice Cube]It was okay up until victim #19… *shakes head*
I’m not sure how much winning or respect that guy generated (I usually don’t pay attention to the Big Ten+Whatever) but it’s like the university staff collectively mailed their consciences somewhere else.[/quote]Technically Paterno did nothing illegal. I’d really like to know more and I suspect we will, but right now I’m inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. The GA said to the grand jury that he saw anal sex in the shower. Paterno says that is not what he told him. We may never know who is right, but my question is this: why didn’t the fucking GA go to the police? It’s not like this a 15 year old kid. It’s a fucking graduate assistant who claims he saw an old man fucking a 10 year old in a shower. Two things…
1. Beat the living fuck out Sandusky the moment you see that and get the kid out of there. Seriously. Grab whatever you can or beat the shit out of him with your bare hands. I don’t care. Slam his fucking head into the wall. Does not matter.
2. After you do that, tie the motherfucker up and call the fucking police.
If that happens, this ends that moment and that piece of shit never does it again.
What you don’t do is this:
1. Go home and call Daddy. Wait for Daddy to tell you to NOT go to the fucking police, but to Joe motherfucking Paterno whose only business being involved with that crime was that he worked at the fucking university.
2. Go on with your life like nothing happened. Never go up to Paterno or someone else and ask them what happened about that piece of shit who was raping a child in the shower.
The real blame here falls on Sandusky for doing this shit and the university officials for covering it up, but the GA is a fucking retard who should never be allowed to do anything by himself ever again.
[quote name=Rice Cube]Saw a headline that Joe Paterno will retire at the end of the season.[/quote]
I’m shocked that it’s not at the end of the week.
Apply this horrendous shit to whatever job you have. You see some old man having sex with someone you think is 10 years old near your office. What do you do?
A. Call Daddy, go to Paterno, and forget about it after that
B. Beat the shit out of the man and call the police
C. Call the police
I’d go with B, but C is acceptable.
This whole thing is mindboggling on so many levels. It took a lot of really fucking stupid people for this to happen.
I’ll be shocked if Paterno doesn’t end up retiring even sooner. If he’s not outright fired by the PSU board of trustees today.
[quote name=Berselius]I’m shocked that it’s not at the end of the week.[/quote]Me too. Topics asked Paterno after each game:
1. Sandusky
Morally, Paterno is just a piece of shit.
[quote name=mb21]
The real blame here falls on Sandusky for doing this shit and the university officials for covering it up, but the GA is a fucking retard who should never be allowed to do anything by himself ever again.[/quote]In a fleeting moment of rationalization the kid might have been trying to keep his job or something, but I agree that the way he handled it was totally wrong.
[quote name=Berselius]I’m shocked that it’s not at the end of the week.[/quote]I guess this is the last act of respect for JoePa, but you’d think Joe would just resign instead of hanging around with a cloud of scandal over him until the season is up.
Beating the fuck out of child rapist and calling police way cooler than trying to keep job or something.
[quote name=mb21]Beating the fuck out of child rapist and calling police way cooler than trying to keep job or something.[/quote]Correct.
But college kids can be pretty stupid as I’m sure most can attest to. Doesn’t excuse the lapse in judgment, but there ya go.
[quote name=mb21]Beating the fuck out of child rapist and calling police way cooler than trying to keep job or something.[/quote]People can convince themselves of crazy things. Say the people he talks to tell him that COULDN’T be what he saw. He only saw a glimpse, not full on. A suspicion. No, surely, I’m just making that up. I misinterpreted. My boss is threatening me if I’m not 100% sure and the more I think about it, the less sure I am.
The mind plays tricks on you, is all I’m saying, and when there are threats and guilt if you are wrong (imagine he accuses someone and is wrong — ruins his life and the other guy’s life anyway). So I can see how if he’s told it will be handled, after being reassured that what he saw wasn’t what he thought he saw, that he goes about his life, always guilty and wondering, but never quite sure.
Anyway, that’s what I would say. If he saw full on and was 100%, then he definitely should have acted loudly and publicly, telling anyone who would listen.
McQueary was 28 years old at the time.
Besides, you beat the shit out of someone and you’re wrong? Jail and life ruined. You do it and you’re right? You can still go to jail, and your life may still be ruined.
[quote name=Rice Cube]Correct.
But college kids can be pretty stupid as I’m sure most can attest to. Doesn’t excuse the lapse in judgment, but there ya go.[/quote]This entire thing was born out of fear that whatever bullshit mystique they had built up would be gone the moment that story came out. And they were right. That shit would have stained the University almost as much as it has now including the cover-up. But I don’t give a flying fuck.
I would quit a job in an instant if keeping it meant having to hide the rape of children from the authorities AND THEN still have that sick fuck walking around campus and using the facilities like nothing ever happened.
But hiding it was the easy way, and I’m sure that this was not the first thing we would shake our heads at if we knew about it that was hidden from the authorities and the press. The stories about how “friendly” the cops in College Station are towards the athletic program are numerous. Shit was swept under the rug before and it had been done effectively. I’m sure this was just thrown on the pile of shit.
We are looking at this from a perspective of “Oh look at that highly respectable football program at a very pleasant small college town that all of a sudden has a serial child molester stalking through the campus!” They probably viewed it as only slightly worse than a normal Saturday evening of cleaning up messes caused by football players getting into trouble with drugs, alcohol, etc. I think that is how they justified it. Their jump in shock wasn’t nearly as large as our jump since they started in a pretty smarmy environment to begin with.
It is still baffling how this wasn’t viewed as a line that should never, ever be crossed.
[quote name=josh]Besides, you beat the shit out of someone and you’re wrong? Jail and life ruined. You do it and you’re right? You can still go to jail, and your life may still be ruined.[/quote]I think the right answer would’ve been C: Call the police. Let them deal with it. He’d probably lose his job if he was wrong, but I guess it’s better safe than sorry. And even if they couldn’t prove it then, they could have drawn more attention to the potential pedophile at maybe reduced the number of victims he could take advantage of until he was finally caught…but hindsight is 20/20.
Josh, go to page 6 of the grand jury report I linked above. He clearly saw a naked Sandusky having anal sex with a kid he estimated to be 10 years old (also naked). The 10 year old’s hands were up against the wall. Both Victim 2 and Sandusky saw McQueary and he left the locker room.
I agree the mind can play tricks on you, but what you do at that moment is protect the kid. I don’t care how he does it. You have to do it. He’s not legally obligated to do this just as Paterno followed the law, but morally, McQueary is a piece of shit who should never be able to work again. Anywhere. At any job. He’s a useless human being.
THIS. I would simply refuse to work anywhere anywhere that piece of shit was. I’d go to the media and tell them exactly what I saw. Under no circumstances would I first call Daddy and then go see my boss.
I get that people are stupid and do stupid things, but this is unthinkably stupid.
Wait, did that grad assistant guy actually call his father before talking to Joe Paterno? If that’s the case, then his dad is also retarded.
[quote name=Rice Cube]Wait, did that grad assistant guy actually call his father before talking to Joe Paterno? If that’s the case, then his dad is also retarded.[/quote]Yes. His dad told him to leave the building. Then they went to Paterno the next day.
[quote name=Rice Cube]Wait, did that grad assistant guy actually call his father before talking to Joe Paterno? If that’s the case, then his dad is also retarded.[/quote]Yes. This whole thing is like a bad movie that doesn’t make the least bit of sense. The writers just throw shit together and think of as much nonsense as possible. This is it. You couldn’t make a movie out of this because no one would even believe it.
McQueary left the locker room, distraught (no fucking shit!), sent home and called his father. The first thing he does after seeing an old man raping a child is walk out of the locker room. The second thing he does is call his father.
It is unbelievable how stupid you’d have to be at the age of 28 for that to be the first two things you do after witnessing something like this.
[quote name=Aisle424]Yes. His dad told him to leave the building. Then they went to Paterno the next day.[/quote]That’s right. I was thinking he called from home.
We need to pass the McQueary Law. If you see a child being raped you first go to the police. At that point you can call Daddy.
FWIW maybe mcqueary knew the cops would cover it up yet again and only Paterno’s involvement would get any traction with them.
I’m not a lawyer but I would imagine there are laws to protect whistleblowers such that they can’t lose employment even if they were wrong about it, but sincerely thought at the time they saw what they saw.
[quote name=Berselius]FWIW maybe mcqueary knew the cops would cover it up yet again[/quote]The cops were involved too? Now that’s even more fucked up than it already is.
[quote name=Berselius]I’ll be shocked if Paterno doesn’t end up retiring even sooner. If he’s not outright fired by the PSU board of trustees today.[/quote]
[quote name=Berselius]I’m shocked that it’s not at the end of the week.[/quote]
Are you hooked up to electrodes?
[quote name=Rice Cube]I’m not a lawyer but I would imagine there are laws to protect whistleblowers such that they can’t lose employment even if they were wrong about it, but sincerely thought at the time they saw what they saw.[/quote]There are rules but it’s impossible to enforce, since personnel decisions aren’t so cut and dry. There’s a million ways to screw soneone’s career over.
[quote name=Rice Cube]The cops were involved too? Now that’s even more fucked up than it already is.[/quote]No. But they were known to be conveniently blind when Penn State shit went down, so it is slightly conceivable that McQueary was so concerned that he didn’t trust the police to do the right thing. HOWEVER, his follow-up actions (which were: 1. Do nothing. 2. Never even ask if anyone else had done anything. 3. Continue to do nothing.) don’t follow with someone concerned about the right thing being done.
I just can’t help but think that all of this could have been averted if Purple Shirt Guy had gone to Penn State.
So how did all this shit get brought up to court level? He got caught last year or so?
Joe Paterno deciding to retire is kind of like when Edward Smith decided to retire from being Captain of the Titanic.
I don’t understand how this whole thing could be swept under the rug for so long. I don’t want to blame Paterno but if he knew about it, he’s a piece of shit. Especially being that he has a son. How could any person, especially a parent, let that happen? It’s inhuman.
[quote name=Berselius]FWIW maybe mcqueary knew the cops would cover it up yet again and only Paterno’s involvement would get any traction with them.[/quote]Cops cover up all kinds of shit, but me believing that McQueary thought the cops would cover up a child rape just isn’t happening. The right thing to do was to call the police. If the police cover it up then you can go to the media, but this crime absolutely had to be reported to the police by the person who saw it.
[quote name=Berselius]There are rules but it’s impossible to enforce, since personnel decisions aren’t so cut and dry. There’s a million ways to screw soneone’s career over.[/quote]Even if that’s exactly what would have happened, it still doesn’t justify what McQueary did. The only question I have is this: Did McQueary feel his life was at harm if he notified the police? If he can honestly say yes to that question then I can get over it. However, a person who honestly feels threatened isn’t going to to tell Joe Paterno about it so I don’t buy it.
I’d much rather my career be screwed over having done the right thing in this situation than eventually having my career screwed over because I did the wrong thing. McQueary is done. He’ll never coach again. His career had a much greater chance of being screwed over handling it the way he did.
[quote name=Mucker]I don’t understand how this whole thing could be swept under the rug for so long. I don’t want to blame Paterno but if he knew about it, he’s a piece of shit. Especially being that he has a son. How could any person, especially a parent, let that happen? It’s inhuman.[/quote]He was told something about what McQueary saw in 2002. Paterno did go to his bosses. He should have done more, but it all started with the person or people who saw the actions and did nothing.
Interesting book about baseballs if anyone is interested. This one is PDF format http://www.filesonic.com/file/3204178695 Here is an epub format for those of us with ereaders http://www.filesonic.com/file/3204162755
Late to the conversation here, but the reason that Z’s no trade clause is still mentioned is that while it is redundant now in Chicago due to 10 and 5 rights, the 10 and 5 rights do not follow him to KC for instance but the NTC does. That makes a difference as teams cannot take a chance on a good first half and just assume they could flip him at the deadline.
[quote name=mb21]Cops cover up all kinds of shit, but me believing that McQueary thought the cops would cover up a child rape just isn’t happening. The right thing to do was to call the police. If the police cover it up then you can go to the media, but this crime absolutely had to be reported to the police by the person who saw it.[/quote]I’m not trying to exonerate mcqueary. Just trying to figure out in what scenario his actions make a lick of sense at all
[quote name=Aisle424]No. But they were known to be conveniently blind when Penn State shit went down, so it is slightly conceivable that McQueary was so concerned that he didn’t trust the police to do the right thing. HOWEVER, his follow-up actions (which were: 1. Do nothing. 2. Never even ask if anyone else had done anything. 3. Continue to do nothing.) don’t follow with someone concerned about the right thing being done.[/quote]
I can’t help but think comparing what the police did with DUIs, public intoxes and other various crimes has no bearing on what they would have done if they were told by a witness that they saw him raping a 10 year old. These crimes are nothing alike. Raping children is so bad that many people see it as bad or even worse than murder. Especially parents.
[quote name=mb21]Even if that’s exactly what would have happened, it still doesn’t justify what McQueary did. The only question I have is this: Did McQueary feel his life was at harm if he notified the police? If he can honestly say yes to that question then I can get over it. However, a person who honestly feels threatened isn’t going to to tell Joe Paterno about it so I don’t buy it.
I’d much rather my career be screwed over having done the right thing in this situation than eventually having my career screwed over because I did the wrong thing. McQueary is done. He’ll never coach again. His career had a much greater chance of being screwed over handling it the way he did.[/quote]Agreed MB. I don’t see how you blowing the whistle on a child rape incident would fuck your career. If anything, it would probably make you look like a hero or a real human being. I know I would definitely want somebody on my team that would rather see justice than his own career flourish.
[quote name=Pat]Late to the conversation here, but the reason that Z’s no trade clause is still mentioned is that while it is redundant now in Chicago due to 10 and 5 rights, the 10 and 5 rights do not follow him to KC for instance but the NTC does. That makes a difference as teams cannot take a chance on a good first half and just assume they could flip him at the deadline.[/quote]Thanks, Pat. I didn’t think about that, but it makes perfect sense.
If you see a grown man raping a child, the correct response is to stop the act AND call the police. You should absolutely intervene as soon as possible. Every second of that act destroy’s a person’s psyche.
[quote name=Berselius]I’m not trying to exonerate mcqueary. Just trying to figure out in what scenario his actions make a lick of sense at all[/quote]It’s just not believable, b. If someone came up to me and told me this story and I hadn’t read it, I’d ignore them and consider them full of shit. What went on here is wrong on so many levels. First and foremost the sickening shit that Sandusky was doing. Then you have the university covering it up. You have a GA doing absolutely nothing and a longtime coach doing nothing (though at least Paterno can say he wasn’t a witness). It’s mindboggling.
This is why I don’t think Poz finishes his book. There are going to be books written about this. There will be books written about JoePa and what he did or didn’t do in this case. Poz may write a book, but I don’t think it’s going to be anywhere near the same book he started out writing. He may be one of the people to write about JoePa and this case.
[quote name=Dr. Aneus Taint]If you see a grown man raping a child, the correct response is to stop the act AND call the police. You should absolutely intervene as soon as possible. Every second of that act destroy’s a person’s psyche.[/quote]Agreed. Get him the hell away from the child in whatever way you have to. In what world do you just walk away?
[quote name=Dr. Aneus Taint]If you see a grown man raping a child, the correct response is to stop the act AND call the police. You should absolutely intervene as soon as possible. Every second of that act destroy’s a person’s psyche.[/quote]
Better yet get a backhoe and dig a large hole shoot the SOB drop him in the hole and cover with dirt and a tree and stake the tree. No chance for exoneration that way and problem solved.
[quote name=Mucker]Agreed MB. I don’t see how you blowing the whistle on a child rape incident would fuck your career. If anything, it would probably make you look like a hero or a real human being. I know I would definitely want somebody on my team that would rather see justice than his own career flourish.[/quote]I’d also say that in that moment McQueary was highly unlikely to be thinking about his career. By the time he left, called his Dad, maybe that started coming up, but the moment he should have acted those thoughts wouldn’t have come to him.
[quote name=mb21]I can’t help but think comparing what the police did with DUIs, public intoxes and other various crimes has no bearing on what they would have done if they were told by a witness that they saw him raping a 10 year old. These crimes are nothing alike. Raping children is so bad that many people see it as bad or even worse than murder. Especially parents.[/quote]The police had already covered up one of the other victims named in the report, where Sandusky admitted wrongdoing. Iirc it was 98
[quote name=pinetar]Better yet get a backhoe and dig a large hole shoot the SOB drop him in the hole and cover with dirt and a tree and stake the tree. No chance for exoneration that way and problem solved.[/quote]I probably wouldn’t kill him, but there’s no way I leave that room without hurting him. The only good news is that when he’s in prison he’ll get the same treatment.
[quote name=mb21]I probably wouldn’t kill him, but there’s no way I leave that room without hurting him. The only good news is that when he’s in prison he’ll get the same treatment.[/quote]
I’d have no problem shooting the SOB and would rather see that than have to pay to support the sick SOB.
[quote name=Berselius]The police had already covered up one of the other victims named in the report, where Sandusky admitted wrongdoing. Iirc it was 98[/quote]That’s true. I’m still calling the police. If they try to cover it up, I go to the media. and I go to the charity and scream out loud that Sandusky is a rapist. I’m going to do whatever I possibly can to see that he never does it again.
So are the Cubs only interviewing the 4 candidates?
[quote name=mb21]I’d also say that in that moment McQueary was highly unlikely to be thinking about his career. By the time he left, called his Dad, maybe that started coming up, but the moment he should have acted those thoughts wouldn’t have come to him.[/quote]Yeah, I don’t see how anybody’s first reaction when seeing a 10 year old boy being raped by an old man isn’t first, complete shock and second, after the shock wears off, running over there and killing that bastard. I think I would choke the life out of that man if I saw that happening.
[quote name=Mucker]Yeah, I don’t see how anybody’s first reaction when seeing a 10 year old boy being raped by an old man isn’t first, complete shock and second, after the shock wears off, running over there and killing that bastard. I think I would choke the life out of that man if I saw that happening.[/quote]I’d make sure I didn’t do that. i sure as hell wouldn’t want to spend one day behind bars because of that asshole, but no judge or jury would ever even try to charge me if I got some shots in (dying laughing)
http://www.fangraphs.com/not/index.php/peter-gammons-most-improbable-pocket-tweet-yet/
(dying laughing)
[quote name=mb21]So are the Cubs only interviewing the 4 candidates?[/quote]They requested permission to speak with Martinez and Hale, but haven’t received it yet in either case.
Cubs might want that Cuban guy: http://www.bleachernation.com/2011/11/09/source-chicago-cubs-will-consider-making-offer-to-cuban-star-yoenis-cespedes/
[quote name=mb21]I’d also say that in that moment McQueary was highly unlikely to be thinking about his career. By the time he left, called his Dad, maybe that started coming up, but the moment he should have acted those thoughts wouldn’t have come to him.[/quote]The second he ID’d Sandusky he thought about his career and whistle blower retribution. That is exactly why he didn’t stop the sexual assault.
[quote name=Mucker]Agreed MB. I don’t see how you blowing the whistle on a child rape incident would fuck your career. If anything, it would probably make you look like a hero or a real human being. I know I would definitely want somebody on my team that would rather see justice than his own career flourish.[/quote]There are plenty of examples of whistle blower retribution regardless of the morality of the whistle blower. Institutions have interests which often supersede the morals of individuals. In fact each institution has its own set of guiding principals which differs from an individual outside of that institution. Loyalty to the organization and chain of command help maintain the organization which often supersedes any individual morality that conflicts with the institution’s goals. Hence the retribution and other individuals that are moral not wanting to hire a whistle blower for their institution.
What do you call someone who is loyal 99% of the time? Disloyal.
[quote name=cdw]There are plenty of examples of whistle blower retribution regardless of the morality of the whistle blower. Institutions have interests which often supersede the morals of individuals. In fact each institution has its own set of guiding principals which differs from an individual outside of that institution. Loyalty to the organization and chain of command help maintain the organization which often supersedes any individual morality that conflicts with the institution’s goals. Hence the retribution and other individuals that are moral not wanting to hire a whistle blower for their institution.
What do you call someone who is loyal 99% of the time? Disloyal.[/quote]
If I was interviewing a guy who lost his last job because he stepped in and prevented child rape, I’d probably view him favorably as a result. Let’s not pretend that this would be a guy sitting in an interview and simply claiming that is why he lost his job. Chances are any AD worth anything would probably be familiar with the case and know damn well what this guy sacrificed in the name of morality. Unless you are running a crooked program and don’t want Moral Orel running around, you probably think it is a good thing.
[quote name=Aisle424]If I was interviewing a guy who lost his last job because he stepped in and prevented child rape, I’d probably view him favorably as a result. Let’s not pretend that this would be a guy sitting in an interview and simply claiming that is why he lost his job. Chances are any AD worth anything would probably be familiar with the case and know damn well what this guy sacrificed in the name of morality. Unless you are running a crooked program and don’t want Moral Orel running around, you probably think it is a good thing.[/quote]Yeah, it is not that your reaction is not possible just that only viewing the situation from that perspective would be ignoring previous human behavior.
Plus, I’m certain there are people responsible for hiring that feel exactly like you do right now but would not hire McQueary in this hypothetical.
/Double hypothetical’ed
[quote name=Aisle424]If I was interviewing a guy who lost his last job because he stepped in and prevented child rape, I’d probably view him favorably as a result. Let’s not pretend that this would be a guy sitting in an interview and simply claiming that is why he lost his job. Chances are any AD worth anything would probably be familiar with the case and know damn well what this guy sacrificed in the name of morality. Unless you are running a crooked program and don’t want Moral Orel running around, you probably think it is a good thing.[/quote]Yeah, this guy’s career was never in trouble. Maybe at PSU, but not anywhere else. He’d be looked at more favorably as a result of that. Now he’ll be looked at unfavorably and is unhirable.
This isn’t the typical whistleblower. This is a person who witnessed a 10 year old being raped by a old man. I don’t think whistleblowing has anything in common with reporting this crime. I don’t think the typical behavior of a whistleblower is any decent indication of how McQueary may have felt or thought at the time. How have other people who witness a child being raped thought? What was their first reaction?
McQueary told Paterno. McQueary was just dumb enough to think that was the same as calling the police. His reaction soon after seeing was to report it. He just reported it to the wrong person.
THIS
http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/child_rapists/
http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/7212032/ex-chicago-cubs-manager-mike-quade-want-other-position-team
Among other things, Quade has no hard feelings about Carlos Zambrano.
[quote name=mb21]I don’t think whistleblowing has anything in common with reporting this crime. I don’t think the typical behavior of a whistleblower is any decent indication of how McQueary may have felt or thought at the time. How have other people who witness a child being raped thought? What was their first reaction?
[/quote]We definitely disagree on this point. I know child rape is a lot worse than some of the other acts which are brought to light and have negative repercussions for that whistle blower. I think the whistle blower analogy is correct even though the actions in question are unusual.
I also think Joe Posnanski will finish that book…someday.
http://joeposnanski.blogspot.com/2011/11/curiously-short-posts.html
I can’t help but not care totally about what McQueary did after he saw it. He may not have gone to the police, but he went to the man who is called “the king of State College”. He was a part of this “kingdom” and it is a very real possibility that in the situation he thought he went to something better than the police and that it would be handled appropriately.
I don’t know how the Grand Jury was convened, but I have to imagine that McQueary was involved pretty early in that process, and I hope it was tied to the guilt of realizing that the route he took was ultimately not the best, or was not enough. I mean his story is the most damning of all the information that came out in the grand jury report. I would be very surprised if that alone was not the piece of information that brought the grand jury about.
All of that said, the real bad guy is that guy who “allegedly” rapped the “10″ year old boy. Though I agree with most of you that my first action would have been very violent and swift, his was not. The guy that needs strung up, will be. Very soon. And if he somehow avoids prosecution or jail time, this is the type of person that randomly goes missing and is found 4 months later after the spring thaw mutilated in a corn field missing a few vital organs and skin. Justice may not be swift and sure, but karma is a bitch.
I have read this a few times and completely agree with it:
This is a terrible thing that should have been stopped years before it ever got to McQueary or in 2009 when the boy at the high school finally spoke out. It was not. Those who witnessed/were involved have to live with that guilt for allowing it to continue. The one man that deserves reprimand is going to get it, one way or the other.
MB I haven’t read the Breaking Bad Season Recap yet but I will be checking it out soon. I don’t look forward to Sunday nights like I used to during BB. Homeland is good but doesn’t really compare.
I think McQueary went to Paterno because he was scared and because it was easier. I understand the scared part, but it’s no excuse to not contact the police.
I’d like to know how McQueary and Sandusky interacted after that. Sandusky certainly didn’t see to it that he wasn’t allowed access to the locker room.
yeah, snyds, the person who is most guilty here is Sandusky, but some others are guilty of being stupid beyond all belief. It’s actually most every human being involved. You could replace Paterno, McQueary, the AD and other university officials with cats, dogs, plants or paper weights and get the same result we got. A box of fucking rocks in place of each one of them would have resulted in the same thing. So I have no problem referring to any of them as dumber than a lifeless object. They are.
[quote name=cdw]MB I haven’t read the Breaking Bad Season Recap yet but I will be checking it out soon. I don’t look forward to Sunday nights like I used to during BB. Homeland is good but doesn’t really compare.[/quote]I like Homeland too, but it’s not nearly as good as BB. I don’t think any show has been as good as BB has been in season 3 and 4 so it’s really not fair to compare shows to that. (dying laughing)
I can’t help but be disgusted about the timing of this story coming out- there’s something gross about the fact that we didn’t hear a peep about this until AFTER Paterno broke the NCAA record for wins, a mere 2 weeks ago. yuck. It seems obvious that this story would end his career, but that it remained silent until he achieved the record.
[quote name=work sucks]I can’t help but be disgusted about the timing of this story coming out- there’s something gross about the fact that we didn’t hear a peep about this until AFTER Paterno broke the NCAA record for wins, a mere 2 weeks ago. yuck. It seems obvious that this story would end his career, but that it remained silent until he achieved the record.[/quote]
Keeping up appearances uber alles.
[quote name=work sucks]I can’t help but be disgusted about the timing of this story coming out- there’s something gross about the fact that we didn’t hear a peep about this until AFTER Paterno broke the NCAA record for wins, a mere 2 weeks ago. yuck. It seems obvious that this story would end his career, but that it remained silent until he achieved the record.[/quote]
The timing was pretty convenient, but if they were holding off on it, why not just wait a few more months until Bowl Season is over? After almost 10 years of covering up, what’s a few more months?
So as much as I have no problem believing the possibility that this came out AFTER the record was intentional, I don’t think it is likely.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/09/penn-state-scandal-timeline-jerry-sandusky_n_1084204.html
It is fucked up how long it took his ass to be arrested. He was witnessed by at least 2 different people at different times (Fall 2000, March 2002). Authorities were told multiple times. (1998, March 2002, Spring 2008, Early 2009).
There is fuck up after fuck up of everyone involved. It is a fucking shit show.
Via Muskat:
(dying laughing)
Hire him.
[quote name=Aisle424]Hire
himthis man.[/quote]Costanza’dJust got this e-mailed to me. Might be interesting.
[quote name=WenningtonsGorillaCock]
November 9, 2011
Live Season Ticket Holder call with new Cubs management!
Join Theo Epstein, Jed Hoyer and Jason McLeod
for our Cubs Season Ticket Holder LIVE Fan Forum event
on Thursday, November 10 at 4 p.m. (CST)
Dear Mr. Gorilla Cock,
As a reminder, we are hosting our second Cubs Season Ticket Holder Fan Forum this Thursday at 4 p.m. (CST) featuring Cubs President of Baseball Operations Theo Epstein, Executive Vice President and General Manager Jed Hoyer, and Senior Vice President of Scouting and Player Development Jason McLeod. The event will be moderated by Cubs TV broadcaster Len Kasper. This is your chance to ask your questions directly to Theo, Jed, and Jason in a conference call-like format.[/quote]
[quote name=Aisle424]Via Muskat:
(dying laughing)[/quote]Humor is a good defense mechanism.
[quote name=WenningtonsGorillaCock]Just got this e-mailed to me. Might be interesting.[/quote](dying laughing) @ “Mr. Gorilla Cock” haha
[quote name=Rice Cube](dying laughing) @ “Mr. Gorilla Cock” haha[/quote]
Sounds like I might have to submit my questions to a call screener before I can ask them. Unless you guys have better ideas, I think my questions will be as follows:
1) Who owns the team?
2) Is Aramis still under contract and, if so, does Zambrano have a no-trade clause?
3) Do you know what a misting station is and, if so, will one be installed in place of the scoreboard?
[quote name=WenningtonsGorillaCock]Sounds like I might have to submit my questions to a call screener before I can ask them. Unless you guys have better ideas, I think my questions will be as follows:
1) Who owns the team?
2) Is Aramis still under contract and, if so, does Zambrano have a no-trade clause?
3) Do you know what a misting station is and, if so, will one be installed in place of the scoreboard?[/quote]
4) How much do we still owe Carlos Silva?
5) What does Crane Kenney do?
6) Who owns the Cubs?
7) Who?
8) When the Cubs go the Owner’s Meetings, who represents the Cubs?
[quote name=WenningtonsGorillaCock]Just got this e-mailed to me. Might be interesting.[/quote]
I took a quick trip from the future to grab this article.
Nov 11, 2011
CHICAGO – In an impromptu press conference, Cubs President of Baseball Operations Theo Epstein and GM Jed Hoyer abruptly announced their resignations, effective immediately. Jason McLeod could not be found for comment, but a Lakeview resident in a green sweatshirt claiming to be McLeod’s landlord said that his apartment was cleaned out.
[quote name=mb21]Josh, go to page 6 of the grand jury report I linked above. He clearly saw a naked Sandusky having anal sex with a kid he estimated to be 10 years old (also naked). The 10 year old’s hands were up against the wall. Both Victim 2 and Sandusky saw McQueary and he left the locker room.
I agree the mind can play tricks on you, but what you do at that moment is protect the kid. I don’t care how he does it. You have to do it. He’s not legally obligated to do this just as Paterno followed the law, but morally, McQueary is a piece of shit who should never be able to work again. Anywhere. At any job. He’s a useless human being.[/quote]Unconscionable. This is by far the world’s worst example of the Milgram Experiment playing out in real life.
WTF. This was written in April.
http://www.timesonline.com/columnists/sports/mark_madden/madden-sandusky-a-state-secret/article_863d3c82-5e6f-11e0-9ae5-001a4bcf6878.html#user-comment-area
Spanier ———-> resigned
[quote name=josh]Unconscionable. This is by far the world’s worst example of the Milgram Experiment playing out in real life.[/quote]My anecdotal experience that is tangentially related (plenty of differences, but also some similarities making it a potentially useful comparison) was when I was driving a cab. I dropped a woman off at her house. I immediately heard loud shouting and what I can only describe as the sounds of violence, accompanied by a screaming male voice. Shit, I don’t know, maybe it was nothing. Maybe I was hearing dude stamp bare feet on the ground or punch a mannequin he kept by the door. It sounded to me like a fist punching a face, having never actually heard the sound before. My stomach lurched, I called into my dispatcher, the only authority I had at the moment. I asked him what I should do. He said I could call the cops, or I could move on. I drove 3 blocks. Stopped. Ran to a nearby gas station and called the cops. I felt sick about it. I felt sick that I had driven three blocks. I felt sick that I had even considered leaving. I felt sick that I was actually calling the cops when after all what did I really hear? I felt scared since the woman had seen my face and knew my name, as well as the company I worked for (this was in a small town in Iowa), that I might get hurt as a result of this, or killed. Your mind does some crazy shit to you in high-stress situations. But overriding all of that was the sense that I had to do something, even if it was nothing. I called the cops, gave them the address, then went back to work and didn’t sleep the next day.
[quote name=josh]My anecdotal experience that is tangentially related (plenty of differences, but also some similarities making it a potentially useful comparison) was when I was driving a cab. I dropped a woman off at her house. I immediately heard loud shouting and what I can only describe as the sounds of violence, accompanied by a screaming male voice. Shit, I don’t know, maybe it was nothing. Maybe I was hearing dude stamp bare feet on the ground or punch a mannequin he kept by the door. It sounded to me like a fist punching a face, having never actually heard the sound before. My stomach lurched, I called into my dispatcher, the only authority I had at the moment. I asked him what I should do. He said I could call the cops, or I could move on. I drove 3 blocks. Stopped. Ran to a nearby gas station and called the cops. I felt sick about it. I felt sick that I had driven three blocks. I felt sick that I had even considered leaving. I felt sick that I was actually calling the cops when after all what did I really hear? I felt scared since the woman had seen my face and knew my name, as well as the company I worked for (this was in a small town in Iowa), that I might get hurt as a result of this, or killed. Your mind does some crazy shit to you in high-stress situations. But overriding all of that was the sense that I had to do something, even if it was nothing. I called the cops, gave them the address, then went back to work and didn’t sleep the next day.[/quote]
Would you have felt as sick about alerting someone if you had actually seen the guy punch the woman? Would you have been as quick to drive away if you had physically seen the woman get punched in the face? I don’t know you, but I bet a lot that you would be a heck of a lot more proactive about acting than based on what you heard.
That is a huge difference here. McQuade saw anal rape in progress. There is very little debate about that. He saw it and he saw it clearly enough to know exactly what was going on.
One time, I was walking on our campus with a couple of friends and we passed a car. The door opened and we heard a guy yelling obscenities so we turned around and saw a college-aged woman getting out of the car and she had a bloody nose.
We looked at each other and turned around and headed back towards the car and asked her if she needed help. She started to say no, and the the guy got out and started yelling at us to mind our own fucking business and threatened to kick our asses if we didn’t leave.
My buddies stayed and tried to get her to come into the dorm with us. I went in and called 911 to get the police there. That’s when the guy slammed the car door and took off.
There was a ton of stuff going on and all kinds of fear and that part of your brain that tries to tell you it is all a big misunderstanding, but I still feel like a pussy for having been the one that went into relative safety to call the cops (this was before cell phones were common). I don’t know what I would have done if there hadn’t been three of us. But I think everything would have been a hell of a lot more clear if we had actually seen him give her the bloody nose.
I’m also irrationally afraid the police. I don’t know why. I’ve never been in trouble beyond a traffic accident when I was 16 that wasn’t my fault and a couple of speeding tickets. I was worried they would either arrest me for making false claims, or detain me and question me all night, preventing me from earning my pay for the night. I depended on that money to live at that point. Stupid, selfish reasons, in retrospect, but all of that went through my mind. I never followed up. I still feel guilty about this incident.
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/thetoydepartment/2011/11/on_paterno.html
[quote name=Aisle424]Would you have felt as sick about alerting someone if you had actually seen the guy punch the woman? Would you have been as quick to drive away if you had physically seen the woman get punched in the face? I don’t know you, but I bet a lot that you would be a heck of a lot more proactive about acting than based on what you heard.
That is a huge difference here. McQuade saw anal rape in progress. There is very little debate about that. He saw it and he saw it clearly enough to know exactly what was going on.
One time, I was walking on our campus with a couple of friends and we passed a car. The door opened and we heard a guy yelling obscenities so we turned around and saw a college-aged woman getting out of the car and she had a bloody nose.
We looked at each other and turned around and headed back towards the car and asked her if she needed help. She started to say no, and the the guy got out and started yelling at us to mind our own fucking business and threatened to kick our asses if we didn’t leave.
My buddies stayed and tried to get her to come into the dorm with us. I went in and called 911 to get the police there. That’s when the guy slammed the car door and took off.
There was a ton of stuff going on and all kinds of fear and that part of your brain that tries to tell you it is all a big misunderstanding, but I still feel like a pussy for having been the one that went into relative safety to call the cops (this was before cell phones were common). I don’t know what I would have done if there hadn’t been three of us. But I think everything would have been a hell of a lot more clear if we had actually seen him give her the bloody nose.[/quote]No, I didn’t see. The sound was pretty distinctive. If I hadn’t been alone, then maybe it’s different. It’s difficult when you are alone, outnumbered, scared. If I had seen him punch her, I would have told the dispatcher to call the cops right then and there, but I probably would have driven around the block in fear. There’s no way at all I would have intervened. I could have had a gun in my glove box and wouldn’t have intervened. So that would have been the difference, I think, just that I would have acted a few seconds quicker to call.
[quote name=josh]No, I didn’t see. The sound was pretty distinctive. If I hadn’t been alone, then maybe it’s different. It’s difficult when you are alone, outnumbered, scared. If I had seen him punch her, I would have told the dispatcher to call the cops right then and there, but I probably would have driven around the block in fear. There’s no way at all I would have intervened. I could have had a gun in my glove box and wouldn’t have intervened. So that would have been the difference, I think, just that I would have acted a few seconds quicker to call.[/quote]That’s my point though. You don’t have to physically intervene to do the right thing. You aren’t a cop and you aren’t a superhero (I’m assuming).
[quote name=Aisle424]That is a huge difference here. McQuade saw anal rape in progress. There is very little debate about that. He saw it and he saw it clearly enough to know exactly what was going on.[/quote](dying laughing)
[quote name=Rice Cube](dying laughing) @ “Mr. Gorilla Cock” haha[/quote](dying laughing) I laugh at that every time he posts it.
[quote name=Aisle424]That’s my point though. You don’t have to physically intervene to do the right thing. You aren’t a cop and you aren’t a superhero (I’m assuming).[/quote]I agree completely. I worry that my slight delay might have earned that women another bruise or another scar. But there was no doubt in my mind that sending someone into the situation who could stop it was the right move, even as scared as I was of retribution, and as guilty as I still feel that I didn’t personally do anything.
[quote name=josh]No, I didn’t see. The sound was pretty distinctive. If I hadn’t been alone, then maybe it’s different. It’s difficult when you are alone, outnumbered, scared. If I had seen him punch her, I would have told the dispatcher to call the cops right then and there, but I probably would have driven around the block in fear. There’s no way at all I would have intervened. I could have had a gun in my glove box and wouldn’t have intervened. So that would have been the difference, I think, just that I would have acted a few seconds quicker to call.[/quote]
Shortly after I came to England, I was woken up late one night by the most unbelievable, hell-raising screaming I’d ever heard. It sounded like a child being run over by a car, again and again and again. I thought “holy shit, who is doing that and what could they possibly be doing to a small child to cause it that much pain, in the street, at 3 am”.
So I grabbed my phone to call 999 (local 911), but decided to look out the window first to see if I could see what was going on. Then I saw something small running around in my front yard, and realized that that was what foxes sounded like.
[quote name=fang2415](dying laughing)[/quote]
No dinner for me.
[quote name=Aisle424]Would you have felt as sick about alerting someone if you had actually seen the guy punch the woman? Would you have been as quick to drive away if you had physically seen the woman get punched in the face? I don’t know you, but I bet a lot that you would be a heck of a lot more proactive about acting than based on what you heard.
That is a huge difference here. McQuade saw anal rape in progress. There is very little debate about that. He saw it and he saw it clearly enough to know exactly what was going on.
One time, I was walking on our campus with a couple of friends and we passed a car. The door opened and we heard a guy yelling obscenities so we turned around and saw a college-aged woman getting out of the car and she had a bloody nose.
We looked at each other and turned around and headed back towards the car and asked her if she needed help. She started to say no, and the the guy got out and started yelling at us to mind our own fucking business and threatened to kick our asses if we didn’t leave.
My buddies stayed and tried to get her to come into the dorm with us. I went in and called 911 to get the police there. That’s when the guy slammed the car door and took off.
There was a ton of stuff going on and all kinds of fear and that part of your brain that tries to tell you it is all a big misunderstanding, but I still feel like a pussy for having been the one that went into relative safety to call the cops (this was before cell phones were common). I don’t know what I would have done if there hadn’t been three of us. But I think everything would have been a hell of a lot more clear if we had actually seen him give her the bloody nose.[/quote]Yeah, see this is typical behavior of decent human beings. When I moved to Topeka I had these neighbors and I suspected that he was abusive towards her, but I wasn’t sure. I never heard anything other than yelling. They were husband and wife so it was annoying, but not my business either. One night I was out having a cigarette and I saw him throw her across the room. I called 911 and then knocked on the door. The police arrived a couple minutes later. What the fuck else are you going to do when you see something like this?
[quote name=Mike Maddux]Asked how he would handle Carlos Zambrano, he said: “First thing you’ve got to do is meet him. I heard he’s a big teddy bear. Might take him up and just burp him.”
Zambrano is a big man, of course.
“Strong back, baby,” Maddux said.[/quote]
(dying laughing)
[quote name=josh]No, I didn’t see. The sound was pretty distinctive. If I hadn’t been alone, then maybe it’s different. It’s difficult when you are alone, outnumbered, scared. If I had seen him punch her, I would have told the dispatcher to call the cops right then and there, but I probably would have driven around the block in fear. There’s no way at all I would have intervened. I could have had a gun in my glove box and wouldn’t have intervened. So that would have been the difference, I think, just that I would have acted a few seconds quicker to call.[/quote]In your situation you didn’t see anything happen. You’re pretty sure what happened based only on sound. No matter how sure you think you are at the moment, you’re quickly trying to think of what else it could be. You get confused. But when you see something with your own eyes, you’re more confident. When you see something so disgusting it’s just hard for me to imagine doing anything other than helping someone out.
I really like Mike Maddux already. I also can’t stop laughing at McQuade. (dying laughing)
[quote name=mb21]In your situation you didn’t see anything happen. You’re pretty sure what happened based only on sound. No matter how sure you think you are at the moment, you’re quickly trying to think of what else it could be. You get confused. But when you see something with your own eyes, you’re more confident. When you see something so disgusting it’s just hard for me to imagine doing anything other than helping someone out.[/quote]At the very least calling those whose job it is to protect the public. Not your dad. (Unless your dad is a cop or Batman, of course.)
[quote name=mb21]I really like Mike Maddux already. I also can’t stop laughing at McQuade. (dying laughing)[/quote]“I saw ‘Dusky raping a child! Do you think we should notify Patty?”
[quote name=mb21]In your situation you didn’t see anything happen. You’re pretty sure what happened based only on sound. No matter how sure you think you are at the moment, you’re quickly trying to think of what else it could be. You get confused. But when you see something with your own eyes, you’re more confident. When you see something so disgusting it’s just hard for me to imagine doing anything other than helping someone out.[/quote]I respect that you went and knocked on dude’s door when you saw obvious abuse. I don’t think I could have done that. If I had a bud with me (like a football player), then maybe. But all alone, I don’t think so. I would have been too scared. It’s not very manly to admit. Even if I had seen him come out and punch her, I still would have not been able to do anything, except call the cops.
http://deadspin.com/5858008/
All better.
[quote name=Aisle424]At the very least calling those whose job it is to protect the public. Not your dad. (Unless your dad is a cop or Batman, of course.)[/quote]My dad isn’t Batman, but he once talked a dude having a paranoid breakdown from using a shotgun on his family and himself. He never talks about it, I’ve only heard the stories second hand.
They just blue themselves.
There’s as much the chance the Big Ten Championship trophy remains the Stagg-Paterno as it is of being renamed the Stagg-mb21.
[quote name=Aisle424]At the very least calling those whose job it is to protect the public. Not your dad. (Unless your dad is a cop or Batman, of course.)[/quote]I get calling your Dad. That’s some fucked up shit to witness. You just don’t call your Dad first. Probably not even second or third. There are more important people to all first. I love my Dad, but in such a situation, he’s just not going to be the first person I call.
[quote name=Aisle424]“I saw ‘Dusky raping a child! Do you think we should notify Patty?”[/quote]Hey, Sands just does that sometimes. We’re trying to win ball games here.
[quote name=Aisle424]
[/quote]I like how she got an apostrophe in her email address.
Does anybody have real links to the managerial press interviews? All I can ever find are like 1 minute edits on CSNs webpages-with-no-urls.
[quote name=mb21]I get calling your Dad. That’s some fucked up shit to witness. You just don’t call your Dad first. Probably not even second or third. There are more important people to all first. I love my Dad, but in such a situation, he’s just not going to be the first person I call.[/quote]right – and leaving isn’t exactly something I’m doing either. That poor 10-year old had to be thinking “Thank-you I’m saved from this monster” only to see the guy fucking bolt.
[quote name=josh]I respect that you went and knocked on dude’s door when you saw obvious abuse. I don’t think I could have done that. If I had a bud with me (like a football player), then maybe. But all alone, I don’t think so. I would have been too scared. It’s not very manly to admit. Even if I had seen him come out and punch her, I still would have not been able to do anything, except call the cops.[/quote]You’d have called the police though. Some might say knocking on the door isn’t manly, but stupid. I knew I was bigger than that guy and I knew he was a coward. And I’m probably a little stupid.
About 8 years ago I was in the basement watching TV. I lived alone, but that was where I watched TV. One night I was 100% positive someone had just broken into the house. It never occurred to me the noise could be something else. My first instinct was to grab whatever I could and run up the steps. The only thing anywhere near me was a plate and I figured I could throw it at the guy. I wasn’t going to look around for anything else. I ran up the steps and nobody had broken in.
About 20 minutes later I realized I took a plate upstairs to fight someone who I thought had broken into the house. Not very smart.
[quote name=fang2415]Does anybody have real links to the managerial press interviews? All I can ever find are like 1 minute edits on CSNs webpages-with-no-urls.[/quote]That’s all I’ve found.
[quote name=Aisle424]http://deadspin.com/5858008/
All better.[/quote]The propensity to think meaningless, unimpactful gestures can help save face is truly a time-honored tradition.
[quote name=JMan]right – and leaving isn’t exactly something I’m doing either. That poor 10-year old had to be thinking “Thank-you I’m saved from this monster” only to see the guy fucking bolt.[/quote]Wow. I hadn’t even thought about it from the kid’s perspective yet. Holy shit, that had to feel awful. 10 years old and not even worth saving from being raped.
[quote name=mb21]You’d have called the police though. Some might say knocking on the door isn’t manly, but stupid. I knew I was bigger than that guy and I knew he was a coward. And I’m probably a little stupid.
About 8 years ago I was in the basement watching TV. I lived alone, but that was where I watched TV. One night I was 100% positive someone had just broken into the house. It never occurred to me the noise could be something else. My first instinct was to grab whatever I could and run up the steps. The only thing anywhere near me was a plate and I figured I could throw it at the guy. I wasn’t going to look around for anything else. I ran up the steps and nobody had broken in.
About 20 minutes later I realized I took a plate upstairs to fight someone who I thought had broken into the house. Not very smart.[/quote]
You need some firearms plain and simple. Heaven help the SOB that breaks into my house. The neighbors would think all hell had broken loose. You’d have to pickup the SOB with a shovel after I ran out of ammo.