When the Cubs put Carlos Zambrano on the disqualified list, it was assumed by everyone that eventually they’d have to pay him the money they aren’t intending to pay. While I think the Cubs certainly have a strong case to even void the entire contract, i don’t think it would ever happen. I was less certain as some that the Cubs would be forced to pay him the money, but still figured they’d have to.
I wanted to look into this, but so few players are placed on the disqualified list that there doesn’t seem to be much reason to compile a list and look into them individually. The most recent player placed on the disqualified list was then Mets closer Fransisco Rodriguez in 2010. The MLBPA naturally filed a grievance and I remember thinking at the time they’d definitely have to pay him the money. Well, they didn’t. They didn’t pay him a dime of the more than $3 million that he lost to the disqualified list. More than 25% of his 2010 salary was lost and he was placed on the list for an injury that wasn’t baseball related.
The Mets had also sought to convert his guaranteed contract into a non-guaranteed contract moving forward. In the end, Rodriguez agreed to not seek the money in exchange for the Mets giving up on the idea that they could convert his contract. This is a perfect example of the Mets knowing they could get away with something and asking for something more, which forced Rodriguez’s hand in accepting the settlement.
The question with regards to Zambrano, since he wasn’t injured, is whether or not the Cubs have cause for not paying him while disqualified. 30 days of pay over a 7-month paycheck is a little under $3 million for Zambrano so the total is similar to Rodriguez. What’s different is that Zambrano did not injure himself away from baseball. What it really comes down to is whether or not a long history of abusing team conduct rules will enable the Cubs to not pay Zambrano. I’m not sure either way and I don’t know if anyone else can be.
A simple statement about how the MLBPA is going to make the Cubs pay isn’t sufficient evidence. They failed in their last attempt, but were successful in their previous attempt (Milton Bradley). There was only 2 weeks of pay for a guy making $5 million so the total amount of money wasn’t significant at all. It’s possible the Cubs just didn’t want to waste time on that case in an effort to save a half million bucks.
This is different. The Cubs are much less likely to settle when the total is nearly $3 million.
Who says Aramis Ramirez doesn’t hustle?
Just think of the Grabow-like pitcher they can sign with that 3 million
[quote name=Rice Cube]Who says Aramis Ramirez doesn’t hustle?[/quote]
Todd Hollandsworth.
18 strikeouts and no walks for Braves pitchers.
[quote name=ACT]18 strikeouts and no walks for Braves pitchers.[/quote]
They’re having a FIP-in’ good time.
Except for that home run of course.
White Castle time
[quote name=ACT]18 strikeouts and no walks for Braves pitchers.[/quote]But the mood is upbeat in the clubhouse!
I do think the Cubs will try and fight this (because you know they don’t have more important things on their plate), and I think what we’ll see is Z’s people eventually ask the MLBPA to back off the grievance Praver has filed in order for Z’s people to be able to negotiate a buyout so he can become an FA. Z will take the unpaid month in exchange for a better buyout and the chance at becoming an FA in 2012. Or something along those lines.
The dreaded two-out walk.
We’re movin’ on up!
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I do think the Cubs will try and fight this (because you know they don’t have more important things on their plate), and I think what we’ll see is Z’s people eventually ask the MLBPA to back off the grievance Praver has filed in order for Z’s people to be able to negotiate a buyout so he can become an FA. Z will take the unpaid month in exchange for a better buyout and the chance at becoming an FA in 2012. Or something along those lines.[/quote]
That sounds about right.
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I do think the Cubs will try and fight this (because you know they don’t have more important things on their plate), and I think what we’ll see is Z’s people eventually ask the MLBPA to back off the grievance Praver has filed in order for Z’s people to be able to negotiate a buyout so he can become an FA. Z will take the unpaid month in exchange for a better buyout and the chance at becoming an FA in 2012. Or something along those lines.[/quote]
I think it depends on whether or not any team wants Carlos Zambrano and I’m not certain any would. He’s scheduled to make $18 million next year. I’m guessing the buyout Zambrano would have to get in order to make as much money as next year would be close to $18 million. I actually think the only way Zambrano pitches at the big league level again is with the Cubs next year. He’s less than average now and teams just aren’t going to pick up a player like that who brings the baggage he does.
Upbeat Clubhouse and Grabow Guide Cubs to Second Straight Win
[quote name=mb22]I think it depends on whether or not any team wants Carlos Zambrano and I’m not certain any would. He’s scheduled to make $18 million next year. I’m guessing the buyout Zambrano would have to get in order to make as much money as next year would be close to $18 million. I actually think the only way Zambrano pitches at the big league level again is with the Cubs next year. He’s less than average now and teams just aren’t going to pick up a player like that who brings the baggage he does.[/quote]
I forget, what is bad chemistry valued at – 2 WAR?
I know folks around here are generally inclined to defend Zambrano, which I understand, given how valuable he’s been to the Cubs over the years, but I have to ask– is everyone in agreement that, far and away, best case scenario is the Cubs somehow avoid paying a substantial amount of the $20MM+ he’s owed through next year?
Perhaps I should reword that– considering how unlikely it is that the Cubs will get off the hook for the ~$18MM they owe him next year, wouldn’t the best case scenario be that Big Z was serious about retirement?
I think it’s pretty much understood he’s unlikely to have been serious about retiring, but at this point, I don’t think there’s any doubt the concern has to be just how much of his remaining salary the Cubs can possibly dodge. Which I find sorta interesting to hear myself say, since a few weeks ago I probably would’ve argued the Cubs should just hang on to Zambrano just for the sake of getting 160-180 innings out of him next year.
The events the other night changed things though. And since I think we all know Big Z has thrown his last pitch as a Cub, real question is– who the hell is gonna pitch for this team next year? Seriously. Randy Wells is a shadow of his former self, so the Cubs basically have two starters going into next year.
[quote name=mb22]I think it depends on whether or not any team wants Carlos Zambrano and I’m not certain any would. He’s scheduled to make $18 million next year. I’m guessing the buyout Zambrano would have to get in order to make as much money as next year would be close to $18 million. I actually think the only way Zambrano pitches at the big league level again is with the Cubs next year. He’s less than average now and teams just aren’t going to pick up a player like that who brings the baggage he does.[/quote]I think that’s pretty pessimistic. Teams take flyers on guys like Z all the time. I bet StL would take a long hard look at him, thinking that if anyone can right him, it’s Dave Duncan. I was thinking Z’s buyout would be somewhere around 15-18 mil, so I agree with you there. The Cubs’ leverage is that they can keep Z from playing for a whole season. We know how much Z wants to play. But Z’s leverage is he can say “fuck you,” tie the team up in litigation with MLBPA, and sit at home and collect all 23 mil of his contract.
It’s going to be very interesting to see how this all shakes out.
[quote name=Berselius]I forget, what is bad chemistry valued at – 2 WAR?[/quote]2 WAR according to the research done on Baseball Analysts and expanded briefly by Phil Birnbaum.
Two words I’d be interested to get people’s take on here: C.J Wilson. Part of the solution this offseason?
[quote name=Berselius]I forget, what is bad chemistry valued at – 2 WAR?[/quote]Teams seem to treat it about that way, IIRC.
Jack, I think the Cubs should try to void his contract. I don’t think they could, but I’d try to do it.
[quote name=Jack Nugent]Two words I’d be interested to get people’s take on here: C.J Wilson. Part of the solution this offseason?[/quote]Miles has said twice now that a SP is Hendry’s first priority, and I could see Wilson being at or near the top of the list.
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I think that’s pretty pessimistic. Teams take flyers on guys like Z all the time. I bet StL would take a long hard look at him, thinking that if anyone can right him, it’s Dave Duncan. I was thinking Z’s buyout would be somewhere around 15-18 mil, so I agree with you there. The Cubs’ leverage is that they can keep Z from playing for a whole season. We know how much Z wants to play. But Z’s leverage is he can say “fuck you,” tie the team up in litigation with MLBPA, and sit at home and collect all 23 mil of his contract.
It’s going to be very interesting to see how this all shakes out.[/quote]I don’t think he has a chance to collect all $23 million. I’d be really surprised if he gets paid for the rest of this season. I think the Cubs are more than in the right to not pay him the rest of the year.
Teams take chances on guys who aren’t very good, but aren’t bringing the baggage that Z is. Even with Milton Bradley, there was reason to believe he could thrive again in the smaller market after having a good season in Texas.
I could see some team sign him to a minor league deal, but I don’t think he gets major league deal to begin.
[quote name=Jack Nugent]I know folks around here are generally inclined to defend Zambrano, which I understand, given how valuable he’s been to the Cubs over the years, but I have to ask– is everyone in agreement that, far and away, best case scenario is the Cubs somehow avoid paying a substantial amount of the $20MM+ he’s owed through next year?
Perhaps I should reword that– considering how unlikely it is that the Cubs will get off the hook for the ~$18MM they owe him next year, wouldn’t the best case scenario be that Big Z was serious about retirement?
I think it’s pretty much understood he’s unlikely to have been serious about retiring, but at this point, I don’t think there’s any doubt the concern has to be just how much of his remaining salary the Cubs can possibly dodge. Which I find sorta interesting to hear myself say, since a few weeks ago I probably would’ve argued the Cubs should just hang on to Zambrano just for the sake of getting 160-180 innings out of him next year.
The events the other night changed things though. And since I think we all know Big Z has thrown his last pitch as a Cub, real question is– who the hell is gonna pitch for this team next year? Seriously. Randy Wells is a shadow of his former self, so the Cubs basically have two starters going into next year.[/quote]As far as best case scenario, I think retirement is 1A with voiding the contract 1B. But those are both unlikely options. Z wants to play, and MLBPA will never allow that contract to be voided, because they don’t want a precedent set.
So the next best option is a buyout of some sort.
As for possible destinations, I’d say StL, or FLA or CHW, depending on where Guillen is managing next season. NYY and BOS are long shots.
junkstats Jacob Peterson
On 6/24/1997, the A’s struck out 19 times, walked 0 times, but won 4-1. That’s the record. Today, the Cubs missed it by 1 K.
MB that’s cool you saw Michelle Bachmann at the Iowa State Fair this weekend, but you come off a little creepy.
Record for what, exactly? Most strikeouts without a walk in a win?
[quote name=mb22]I don’t think he has a chance to collect all $23 million. I’d be really surprised if he gets paid for the rest of this season. I think the Cubs are more than in the right to not pay him the rest of the year.
Teams take chances on guys who aren’t very good, but aren’t bringing the baggage that Z is. Even with Milton Bradley, there was reason to believe he could thrive again in the smaller market after having a good season in Texas.
I could see some team sign him to a minor league deal, but I don’t think he gets major league deal to begin.[/quote]I think you’re not considering how hard MLBPA will fight to make sure a precedent doesn’t get set here. Z’s goign to get some money, and if Z takes the suspension and walks away, the Cubs are legally bound to pay him that money unless they want to sink more money into fighting a court case they can’t win.
They’d be fools not to try to void the deal, but MLBPA will almost surely fight that long and hard.
And if Z is an FA, I guarantee you he gets a big-league deal somewhere. Especially if Ozzie Guillen has a job next year. (dying laughing)
Well, I think needless to say, as much as I think most people who hang in these threads like and support Zambrano, voiding his contract would be an absolute boon to the organization. Putting it that way is pretty sad, because of how good he used to be, but if the Cubs can void his contract, it would absolutely be cause for celebration.
I studied the upcoming free agent class of starting pitchers, and I think especially considering the dearth of left-handed starters in the highest levels of the organization, I think there’s a really good chance Hendry goes after CJ Wilson. This team is soon to be desperate for pitching, and thanks mostly to injuries, the Cubs don’t have the young arms who are likely to make an instant impact next year. There’s always the trade market of course, but I think it’s very likely the Cubs pursue at least one free agent, and if they do, CJ Wilson would be far from the worse option. He’s been an outstanding AL pitcher in a super difficult pitching environment the past two years, and is young enough that he could provide value on a four year deal, which is almost certainly what it would take to lure him to Chicago.
[quote name=Jack Nugent]Well, I think needless to say, as much as I think most people who hang in these threads like and support Zambrano, voiding his contract would be an absolute boon to the organization. Putting it that way is pretty sad, because of how good he used to be, but if the Cubs can void his contract, it would absolutely be cause for celebration.
I studied the upcoming free agent class of starting pitchers, and I think especially considering the dearth of left-handed starters in the highest levels of the organization, I think there’s a really good chance Hendry goes after CJ Wilson. This team is soon to be desperate for pitching, and thanks mostly to injuries, the Cubs don’t have the young arms who are likely to make an instant impact next year. There’s always the trade market of course, but I think it’s very likely the Cubs pursue at least one free agent, and if they do, CJ Wilson would be far from the worse option. He’s been an outstanding AL pitcher in a super difficult pitching environment the past two years, and is young enough that he could provide value on a four year deal, which is almost certainly what it would take to lure him to Chicago.[/quote]I know you like to trot out that groupthink canard when you stop in here, but I think you’ll notice that opinion here is pretty split on Z’s latest incident, and almost everyone agrees the best thing is for the Cubs to find a way to get rid of him without paying much money.
But the voiding the contract option is simply DOA. It’s absolutely the best option, and the Cubs should at elast explore it, but I think MLBPA is just not going to let that happen. So the Cubs need to find the next best option.
Jack, everyone here would agree that voiding his contract or Z retiring is the best thing for the Cubs. I don’t think it’s going to happen though. At best the Cubs might be able to work out a negotiated buyout, but I don’t think that’s all that likely.
LEvine and Sullivan have both reported the Z will not retire and that Praver will file a grievance with MLBPA on his behalf on Monday. How the Cubs react to that will be very telling as to what course of action they plan to take.
Well, I hardly meant that the joint opinion on him was somehow unfounded or misplaced. There’s no doubt that some have, or soon will forget all about how much Zambrano has contributed to the team over the years, so if anything, all I meant was that it’s good to know some people won’t forget that.
[quote name=Jack Nugent]Well, I hardly meant that the joint opinion on him was somehow unfounded or misplaced. There’s no doubt that some have, or soon will forget all about how much Zambrano has contributed to the team over the years, so if anything, all I meant was that it’s good to know some people won’t forget that.[/quote]I see. It’s pretty sad that most Cub fans have no idea how valuable he’s been. It’s even sadder that his behavior is a big reason for such willful ignorance. And I say that as someone who has tirelessly defended Z until this latest incident.
The only point I’m trying to make, there’s a balance I hope Cub fans manage to find, where it’s important not to cast Zambrano in a completely negative light, but at the same time, severing ties with him for the sake of cost savings is the most important thing. It exacerbates the Cubs’ pitching shortage, even if only by a little, since Zambrano is pretty replaceable at this point, but it’s what needs to be done. I just hope people can try and keep things in perspective when it comes to Big Z, which I think might just be a little difficult because of what a polarizing character he is.
It’s better if you say it in the Dave Chappelle/Rick James’ voice.
[quote name=Mish]junkstats Jacob Peterson
On 6/24/1997, the A’s struck out 19 times, walked 0 times, but won 4-1. That’s the record. Today, the Cubs missed it by 1 K.[/quote]Cubs also committed 4 errors today. (dying laughing)
[quote name=Jack Nugent]The only point I’m trying to make, there’s a balance I hope Cub fans manage to find, where it’s important not to cast Zambrano in a completely negative light, but at the same time, severing ties with him for the sake of cost savings is the most important thing. It exacerbates the Cubs’ pitching shortage, even if only by a little, since Zambrano is pretty replaceable at this point, but it’s what needs to be done. I just hope people can try and keep things in perspective when it comes to Big Z, which I think might just be a little difficult because of what a polarizing character he is.[/quote]I think the Cubs will tar and feather him on the way out of town. Hendry’s already begun with his “Z did a lot terrible things we never told you about” speech last night.
Yeah, it would be great if they could get out from under his money, repercussion free. That would give them a chance to buy some good FAs and compete, but if it comes to a court battle, the cost may outweigh the gains. Buyout is simply going to end up being the easiest way to go.
Re: CJ Wilson– I bet there are a lotta people who see too much downside to signing him, but I think this team needs pitching bad enough that they ought to be willing to take a risk. If they think he can stay healthy, he could be worth every penny of the big deal he’s probably in line for.
[quote name=Jack Nugent]Re: CJ Wilson– I bet there are a lotta people who see too much downside to signing him, but I think this team needs pitching bad enough that they ought to be willing to take a risk. If they think he can stay healthy, he could be worth every penny of the big deal he’s probably in line for.[/quote]Like I said, I think he’ll be a prime candidate for Hendry. I don’t have strong feelings either way. I wish they’d deal Soto for a SP, and use their FA money on Fielder. Instead, I think Hendry will splash for a FA SP and bring back Peña. And I think that will end up being a bad decision.
Update on Z from Miles:
If that’s what MLBPA intend to grieve, the Cubs don’t have a snowball’s chance in hell of voiding that deal.
I’d almost be surprised if the Astros win another game all season.
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Update on Z from Miles:
If that’s what MLBPA intend to grieve, the Cubs don’t have a snowball’s chance in hell of voiding that deal.[/quote]
So…settlement?
I’d think SD would take a look at Zambrano as well. That park makes every pitcher good, and they want to add 15-20M to their payroll next year anyway.
Sabathia will opt out of his deal. The Cubs could try to outbid the Yankees for him, but I don’t see how they’d afford Fielder after that. I expect Hendry to try to trade Soto for James Shields, and to get fleeced. Is Roy Oswalt a FA? Cole Hamels will be, i think. I’d take WIlson, but I bet Texas keeps him. Also Yu Darvish.
[quote name=Recalcitrant Blogger Nate]Sabathia will opt out of his deal. The Cubs could try to outbid the Yankees for him, but I don’t see how they’d afford Fielder after that. I expect Hendry to try to trade Soto for James Shields, and to get fleeced. Is Roy Oswalt a FA? Cole Hamels will be, i think. I’d take WIlson, but I bet Texas keeps him. Also Yu Darvish.[/quote]
The Cubs will have to pay a hefty post fee to outbid others for the right to even talk to Darvish, right? That’s before they pay a Dice-K size contract that Cubs fans will probably bitch about for years afterwards.
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I think you’re not considering how hard MLBPA will fight to make sure a precedent doesn’t get set here. Z’s goign to get some money, and if Z takes the suspension and walks away, the Cubs are legally bound to pay him that money unless they want to sink more money into fighting a court case they can’t win.
They’d be fools not to try to void the deal, but MLBPA will almost surely fight that long and hard.
And if Z is an FA, I guarantee you he gets a big-league deal somewhere. Especially if Ozzie Guillen has a job next year. (dying laughing)[/quote]I don’t think the MLBPA is nearly as strong as you do or as it once was. Arguments could be made at this point that it’s the least strong player’s union in all professional sports. I don’t think it’s about whether or not they want a precedent set. They want Z to get his money and will fight for him to do so, but based on the rules of player conduct, it could easily be argued that Zambrano has violated the terms of his contract. I don’t know which way it will go, but I think the Cubs have reason to pursue it. I’m not certain it would work and doubt it would, but my guess is that it would also move far beyond most of these typical threats at which point Zambrano might accept pennies on the dollar.
[quote name=Jack Nugent]The only point I’m trying to make, there’s a balance I hope Cub fans manage to find, where it’s important not to cast Zambrano in a completely negative light, but at the same time, severing ties with him for the sake of cost savings is the most important thing. It exacerbates the Cubs’ pitching shortage, even if only by a little, since Zambrano is pretty replaceable at this point, but it’s what needs to be done. I just hope people can try and keep things in perspective when it comes to Big Z, which I think might just be a little difficult because of what a polarizing character he is.[/quote]Agreed. Like Sosa, Zambrano was a very good player at one point, but he’s out lives his usefulness. It doesn’t tar his accomplishments beforehand, but I assume most fans only remember players for their final act and so fans will forever hate Zambrano. It’s unfair and it’s not how I’ll remember it, but whatever.
http://www.bleachernation.com/2011/08/14/rumor-dillon-maples-has-signed-with-the-chicago-cubs/
Maples ——–> signed?
[quote name=Berselius]Jack, everyone here would agree that voiding his contract or Z retiring is the best thing for the Cubs. I don’t think it’s going to happen though. At best the Cubs might be able to work out a negotiated buyout, but I don’t think that’s all that likely.[/quote]No, I think a buyout is less likely than the Cubs successfully voiding the contract. Only way that happens is if it begins to appear the Cubs have a strong case to do so at which point the Cubs would probably just take their chances.
[quote name=mb22]I don’t think the MLBPA is nearly as strong as you do or as it once was. Arguments could be made at this point that it’s the least strong player’s union in all professional sports. I don’t think it’s about whether or not they want a precedent set. They want Z to get his money and will fight for him to do so, but based on the rules of player conduct, it could easily be argued that Zambrano has violated the terms of his contract. I don’t know which way it will go, but I think the Cubs have reason to pursue it. I’m not certain it would work and doubt it would, but my guess is that it would also move far beyond most of these typical threats at which point Zambrano might accept pennies on the dollar.[/quote]Zambrano’s got more leverage here. The Cubs will underestimate MLBPA at their own peril. That contract being voided is so far beyond possible, it’s not even worth arguing about, especially when you consider that the Cubs, laughably, are going to fight with the union on the basis of some text messages Z sent out and a promise to retire he delivered to some locker room lackey.
Maybe a competent FO could find a lawyer good enough and amass enough evidence to make a case, but Jim Hendry thinks he can whip MLBPA with text messages and words said in anger. (dying laughing)
I think the lowest amount Z will get is .50 on the dollar. It’s quite easy for him to walk away and let the lawyers fight it out while he gets paid. What the Cubs have to hang their hat on, their only piece of leverage, is that Z just isn’t that guy. He wants to play. The Cubs have find a way to make him realize that they will make him sit at home for a season. But I don’t think this FO could convince a drowning man to grab a life preserver. (dying laughing)
[quote name=mb22]No, I think a buyout is less likely than the Cubs successfully voiding the contract. Only way that happens is if it begins to appear the Cubs have a strong case to do so at which point the Cubs would probably just take their chances.[/quote]I think Carlos wants to play. I also think Jim Hendry really wants to be able to make this suspension w/o pay stick. And I think a negotiated buyout is the best way for both sides to get what they want without either side pissing off MLBPA.
mb, I see you’re getting your kids started early
someone needs to replace that with Cubs Anal (dying laughing)
[quote name=Berselius]someone needs to replace that with Cubs Anal (dying laughing)[/quote](dying laughing)
(dying laughing)
(dying laughing)
I don’t know what this at their own peril stuff is since there have nothing to lose. All I know is the MLBPA is a joke these days. Can’t even win in arbitration. Lowest paid rookies in all of sports. Win value the same for 5 years. They have no power. They capitulated to testing multiple times. They’re done. Owners are stronger.
[quote name=mb22]I don’t know what this at their own peril stuff is since there have nothing to lose. All I know is the MLBPA is a joke these days. Can’t even win in arbitration. Lowest paid rookies in all of sports. Win value the same for 5 years. They have no power. They capitulated to testing multiple times. They’re done. Owners are stronger.[/quote]
I think it’s more that they’re complacent. The vets certainly don’t give a shit about the rookie pay scales.
MLB players make the smallest percentage of league profit of all 4 sports. The MLBPA is not what it once was. The owners have cut their balls off and made them a pathetic group of people.
[quote name=mb22]I don’t know what this at their own peril stuff is since there have nothing to lose. All I know is the MLBPA is a joke these days. Can’t even win in arbitration. Lowest paid rookies in all of sports. Win value the same for 5 years. They have no power. They capitulated to testing multiple times. They’re done. Owners are stronger.[/quote]Look we can both cherrypick facts to prove how we conceive of the strength of MLBPA. But they kept Hendry from docking Milton, and scared him off docking Z last season. Even if one accepts that they are weak as a negotiating body, they still have the ability to tie a team up in litigation, and that threat alone should be enough for Hendry to realize a buyout is the safest way out of this.
Look, here’s the bottom line: We’ll know exactly what Hendry thinks of the union come Monday when that grievance is filed. Until then, all of this just wildass speculation based on an impoverished fact pattern.
I’m really interested to see how this all turns out. There’s so much in play here, that it will be kind of fun to see how it plays out.
[quote name=Berselius]I think it’s more that they’re complacent. The vets certainly don’t give a shit about the rookie pay scales.[/quote]No, but the player’s union in other sports have ensured they’re better taken care of. The veterans would obviously like to do that in MLB, but they don’t have the leverage. They have to give up that fight to get something else. In other sports, they’re able to get that. The bottom line is that the steroids scandal reduced the power of the MLBPA. They aren’t the union they once were. They’ve shown that time and again they’ll give in.
I’ve already said I don’t think the Cubs could void it, but there’s no reason not to try. They do have a case and it’s a well document one and a very long list of things that they could use.
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Look we can both cherrypick facts to prove how we conceive of the strength of MLBPA. But they kept Hendry from docking Milton, and scared him off docking Z last season. Even if one accepts that they are weak as a negotiating body, they still have the ability to tie a team up in litigation, and that threat alone should be enough for Hendry to realize a buyout is the safest way out of this.[/quote]If I’m Jim Hendry, I wouldn’t buyout Zambrano’s contract. For one thing, it’s going to cost as much as his salary next year. If I’m Hendry and as pissed as he obviously is (for good reason too), I’m not doing him one more favor. I’d try to trade him, but they did that this year and found no takers and they won’t find any this offseason. Assuming I can’t trade him, I’d tell him that I’d be more than happy to pay him his salary next year, talk shit about him for another year, and not give him 1 inning pitched. Basically, he’ll enter free agency with teams knowing a lot more about him than he’d ever want, having not pitched in a year and a half, having been suspended by his team twice in a year and be lucky to sign a minor league contract.
That’s me though. I’m an asshole and that’s what I’d do. Maybe the MLBPA can make me pay him, but they can’t make me allow him in the clubhouse, to travel with the team or even be seen anywhere near the team. I’d have a 24-man roster no problem.
I doubt Hendry is the asshole that I am and like Sosa they’ll just pay some team the entire amount plus another $30-75 million to take him. (dying laughing)
Apparently Quade was talking up LaHair after the game today, but I can’t find a quote. Miles also mentioned that LaHair is a for-sure September callup.
They can’t possibly be considering him for next season, can they?
[quote name=mb22]If I’m Jim Hendry, I wouldn’t buyout Zambrano’s contract. For one thing, it’s going to cost as much as his salary next year. If I’m Hendry and as pissed as he obviously is (for good reason too), I’m not doing him one more favor. I’d try to trade him, but they did that this year and found no takers and they won’t find any this offseason. Assuming I can’t trade him, I’d tell him that I’d be more than happy to pay him his salary next year, talk shit about him for another year, and not give him 1 inning pitched. Basically, he’ll enter free agency with teams knowing a lot more about him than he’d ever want, having not pitched in a year and a half, having been suspended by his team twice in a year and be lucky to sign a minor league contract.
That’s me though. I’m an asshole and that’s what I’d do. Maybe the MLBPA can make me pay him, but they can’t make me allow him in the clubhouse, to travel with the team or even be seen anywhere near the team. I’d have a 24-man roster no problem.
I doubt Hendry is the asshole that I am and like Sosa they’ll just pay some team the entire amount plus another $30-75 million to take him. (dying laughing)[/quote]
I really hope that last part isn’t true, but you never know with this FO.
I would assume they won’t give the team an extra $30-75 million, but I would also assume the Cubs would have to send the entire contract (minus league minimum). So I’m guessing they have to send $17.6 million to some team and get nothing in return. That’s why i figure the Cubs have nothing to lose by trying to void his contract. It won’t cost all that much money and there’s at least a chance they’d succeed.
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Apparently Quade was talking up LaHair after the game today, but I can’t find a quote. Miles also mentioned that LaHair is a for-sure September callup.
They can’t possibly be considering him for next season, can they?[/quote]I doubt it, but it would be funny if they were.
Pujols, Fielder or LaHair! (dying laughing)
[quote name=mb22]I would assume they won’t give the team an extra $30-75 million, but I would also assume the Cubs would have to send the entire contract (minus league minimum). So I’m guessing they have to send $17.6 million to some team and get nothing in return. That’s why i figure the Cubs have nothing to lose by trying to void his contract. It won’t cost all that much money and there’s at least a chance they’d succeed.[/quote]There’s no harm in trying, but they’d be sued in a New York minute.
Short of Z hanging it up and telling the Cubs to keep their money, I don’t see any way this doesn’t cost the Cubs money. And, in truth, it should. They signed the contract, same as Zambrano, and they have the same responsibility to honor the deal as he does. Even private sector employees get severance when they’re terminated. Contracts don’t just vanish or get waived away, because someone commits a fireable offense. Maybe this whole trading season will teach Hendry a lesson about the contracts he hands out.
Has there ever been an MLB contract voided?
[quote name=mb22]Pujols, Fielder or LaHair! (dying laughing)[/quote]Let’s See What Happens
Interesting column about voiding MLB contracts: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/thehotstoneleague/2013971539_voiding_a_contract_three_case.html
If those three deals couldn’t be voided on the basis of the conduct clause, the Cubs don’t have a prayer.
Breaking Bad ———> renewed for 16 more episodes, though no info on how they will be aired
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Interesting column about voiding MLB contracts: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/thehotstoneleague/2013971539_voiding_a_contract_three_case.html
If those three deals couldn’t be voided on the basis of the conduct clause, the Cubs don’t have a prayer.[/quote]Maybe the Cubs try to make next year non-guaranteed like the Mets attempted with Rodriguez.
[quote name=mb22]Maybe the Cubs try to make next year non-guaranteed like the Mets attempted with Rodriguez.[/quote]That might be their best shot, but they don’t have any legal problems to stand on. It’s just their interpretation of the conduct clause vs. Praver’s.
I really can’t wait to see how the Cubs respond to this grievance.
Being a sunk cost, and seeing as A) nobody wants him and B) the Cubs don’t want him, if they can’t negotiate a buyout or save any money, why not just release Zambrano?
Sullivan is taking shots at the Daily Herald on Twitter.
Being criticized by Paul Sullivan for shoddy journalism is like being criticized by Carlos Mencia for being a joke stealing hack.
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Sullivan is taking shots at the Daily Herald on Twitter.
Being criticized by Paul Sullivan for shoddy journalism is like being criticized by Carlos Mencia for being a joke stealing hack.[/quote]
What’s he saying?
/doesn’t Twitter
[quote name=Rice Cube]Being a sunk cost, and seeing as A) nobody wants him and B) the Cubs don’t want him, if they can’t negotiate a buyout or save any money, why not just release Zambrano?[/quote]They’ll negotiate a buyout before they release him. Release him and they’ll end up footing the bill because some team will surely sign him for league minimum, leaving the Cubs on the hook for the remainder.
[quote name=Rice Cube]What’s he saying?
/doesn’t Twitter[/quote]Took a couple shots at a game recap over there by a junior writer. The man is an unconscionable assdrip.
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]They’ll negotiate a buyout before they release him. Release him and they’ll end up footing the bill because some team will surely sign him for league minimum, leaving the Cubs on the hook for the remainder.[/quote]
Yeah, but if they don’t get the buyout they don’t even save that league minimum anyway, plus it seems kind of petty to not allow Z to go somewhere else if they don’t want him. But I’m not that big of an asshole (dying laughing)
He must have deleted those tweets
Pujols is up to a .286 batting average, 29 HR and 75 RBI. He still has a shot, if he gets hot, of hitting .300, definitely will get his 30 HR, and will need some teammates to get on base to get 100 RBI. This is a down year.
I only mention those non-statfaggy stats because of his consecutive seasons of .300, 30 HR 100 RBI to start a career. Pujols is a machine.
[quote name=Berselius]He must have deleted those tweets[/quote]
One of them is preserved in the comments at Miles’ blog:
What a fucktard.
Pujols’ “down year” has to be taken in the context of the diminished offense throughout the league. His numbers are still lower than you’d expect them to be, but not by that much.
Nice 3-6-3 DP by Pujols and Furcal.
Also, some of Pujols’ decreased numbers are a result of his not getting intentionally walked much.
[quote name=ACT]Also, some of Pujols’ decreased numbers are a result of his not getting intentionally walked much.[/quote]
Nice to have Holliday and Berkman lurking behind you.
Not so nice if you’re Albert Pujols and you want to pad your OBP.
[quote name=ACT]Not so nice if you’re Albert Pujols and you want to pad your OBP.[/quote]
OBP is at .351 as of his last plate appearance. I think he’ll live.
I’m with MO, in that I’m curious to see what happens. I’d be fine with almost any course of action, short of forgiving and forgetting. If the player’s union is weak, they only have themselves to blame for not policing the steroid problem better, it made life hell for everyone in the sport. If it is weak, this will be a test of that, considering the Cubs case for complete contract voiding is thin right now. They may be in do or die mode in that respect, so it could make for interesting reading. Then again, who knows?
After reading that article on voiding contracts, it looks like teh Cubs have an uphill battle. K-Rod actually tore a ligament in his thumb while fighting, which is quite a bit worse than what Z did. They can say he didn’t work out enough, but they took no sanctions against him for it, so they obviously weren’t overly concerned at the time.
Based on those case studies, I don’t see what argument they present that will succeed. We’ll see, though.
[quote name=josh]After reading that article on voiding contracts, it looks like teh Cubs have an uphill battle. K-Rod actually tore a ligament in his thumb while fighting, which is quite a bit worse than what Z did. They can say he didn’t work out enough, but they took no sanctions against him for it, so they obviously weren’t overly concerned at the time.
Based on those case studies, I don’t see what argument they present that will succeed. We’ll see, though.[/quote]Well, there’s always the chance they do it just to try and see if they can get Z to panic an settle for a lesser buyout.
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Well, there’s always the chance they do it just to try and see if they can get Z to panic an settle for a lesser buyout.[/quote]i think a lot of their case will be history and I think Sullivan alluded to a bunch of texts/VMs of Z telling players he “Thanks, Good-bye I’m done”. I realize that’s not egregious behavior but essentially proves their case that he was walking out and wanting to retire. Praver talked him out of it in order to keep most of the 18M owed.
Essentially they’ll agree to a buyout because even if he retires and then wants to come back next year he can’t sign with any other team. Strictly a guess but I think they agree to a buyout of around 12M as I think some team would give him about 6M on a one-year deal.
I just have this hunch….he’ll be back on the team w/full pay. Maybe not this season, but next season. They’ll blow hard about change and about this and that and in the end nothing will change. Ricketts has left me with this feeling that this team is going to ride every horse until it dies, then keep beating it, pay it $12 million, and then maybe move on.
[quote name=JMan]i think a lot of their case will be history and I think Sullivan alluded to a bunch of texts/VMs of Z telling players he “Thanks, Good-bye I’m done”. I realize that’s not egregious behavior but essentially proves their case that he was walking out and wanting to retire. Praver talked him out of it in order to keep most of the 18M owed.
Essentially they’ll agree to a buyout because even if he retires and then wants to come back next year he can’t sign with any other team. Strictly a guess but I think they agree to a buyout of around 12M as I think some team would give him about 6M on a one-year deal.[/quote]I agree with this, but I think we’ll get a much better picture of how it’ll shake out when we see the Cubs’ response to the official grievance.
[quote name=josh]I just have this hunch….he’ll be back on the team w/full pay. Maybe not this season, but next season. They’ll blow hard about change and about this and that and in the end nothing will change. Ricketts has left me with this feeling that this team is going to ride every horse until it dies, then keep beating it, pay it $12 million, and then maybe move on.[/quote]I’d be shocked if that happens. I think the players (outside of the Ginger Dugout Acrobat, who seems to delight in shaking the dust of former teammates off his feet in public) would eventually welcome him back, but I really think Hendry has had it with Z. He’s done with the Cubs.
How come there hasn’t been an analysis yet on whether or not Peña was worth the $10 million they signed him for. What would he have to do to actually earn that salary. I know $10 Million probably isn’t as much as I feel like it is, but damn.
[quote name=Recalcitrant Blogger Nate]Sabathia will opt out of his deal. The Cubs could try to outbid the Yankees for him, but I don’t see how they’d afford Fielder after that. I expect Hendry to try to trade Soto for James Shields, and to get fleeced. Is Roy Oswalt a FA? Cole Hamels will be, i think. I’d take WIlson, but I bet Texas keeps him. Also Yu Darvish.[/quote]Wilson will be entering his FA year at 35. So he’s not getting more than a 3 or 4 year deal at 12M. I won’t be surprised if the Cubs give him 4/48. I do think they go after one of Pujols/fielder but considering the rumblings of them wanting to bring Pena back I won’t be surprised if they try to upgrade the OF or go after Reyes considering his price-tag dropped a ton after his stints on the DL.
I’ve said it a bunch before but I’m really looking forward to this off-season.
[quote name=josh]How come there hasn’t been an analysis yet on whether or not Peña was worth the $10 million they signed him for. What would he have to do to actually earn that salary. I know $10 Million probably isn’t as much as I feel like it is, but damn.[/quote]if you use Fangraphs WAR he’s been accumulated 1.1 WAR which is about 5M. Since that’s what he’s getting paid this year he’s been worth it thus far. Now we’ll see what happens if they bring him back because I think that deferred 5M gets ripped up and becomes a multi-year deal.
I think it will be very interesting. Lots of high risk with potential high reward. Lots of question marks remaining.
[quote name=JMan]if you use Fangraphs WAR he’s been accumulated 1.1 WAR which is about 5M. Since that’s what he’s getting paid this year he’s been worth it thus far. Now we’ll see what happens if they bring him back because I think that deferred 5M gets ripped up and becomes a multi-year deal.[/quote]I’m really afraid that this is the plan and the splash will be for a SP and not much else.
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I’m really afraid that this is the plan and the splash will be for a SP and not much else.[/quote]
I’d rather they not splash at all and just play the kids, but I think we all know that probably won’t happen.
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I’m really afraid that this is the plan and the splash will be for a SP and not much else.[/quote]It’s going to be one hell of a shitty starting rotation unless they can add somebody of big value.
[quote name=Rice Cube]I’d rather they not splash at all and just play the kids, but I think we all know that probably won’t happen.[/quote]I just don’t know who they have who can pitch. It looks very thin.
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I’m really afraid that this is the plan and the splash will be for a SP and not much else.[/quote]well Buster Olney seems to agree as he literally just tweeted this:
Just mentioned: In some important corners of the Cubs’ front office, there is concern about investing huge $ in one player this winter.
[quote name=josh]It’s going to be one hell of a shitty starting rotation unless they can add somebody of big value.[/quote]Dempster, Garza, Wells, Cashner, Coleman. Meh. Not great, not terrible.
[quote name=JMan]well Buster Olney seems to agree as he literally just tweeted this:
Just mentioned: In some important corners of the Cubs’ front office, there is concern about investing huge $ in one player this winter.[/quote]/facepalm
[quote name=josh]I just don’t know who they have who can pitch. It looks very thin.[/quote]Demp, Garza, Wells, Cashner, Coleman, plus Marshall or F7 could always be stretched out to start. Not much outside of that, though.
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]/facepalm[/quote]I still think I’d be fine if they didn’t sign Pujols/Fielder. The various risks associated to both are so high the Cubs would probably only get total value out of the first 3-4 years in what is likely to be 8-year commitments.
At the same time not signing either makes contending that much bigger of an uphill battle. This complete mess is why I think the off-season is going to be fun because i expect some decent moves coupled with a few train-wrecks.
For JG and DJ: http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/breaking/chi-49ers-to-bring-in-qb-culpepper-for-workout-20110814,0,2978695.story
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Demp, Garza, Wells, Cashner, Coleman, plus Marshall or F7 could always be stretched out to start. Not much outside of that, though.[/quote]Yeah, not great. And if one of those guys go down, then you’re sunk. Hopefully Wells can actually pitch and Coleman remembers where the strike zone is. I’m not saying they need a CC, or that they need to dump all their money into one player, but a couple of solid guys sure would help.
Or is Ricketts plan to put it all on the draft signees in 2-3 years?
It’s going to get worse before it gets better, isn’t it?
[quote name=JMan]I still think I’d be fine if they didn’t sign Pujols/Fielder. The various risks associated to both are so high the Cubs would probably only get total value out of the first 3-4 years in what is likely to be 8-year commitments.
At the same time not signing either makes contending that much bigger of an uphill battle. This complete mess is why I think the off-season is going to be fun because i expect some decent moves coupled with a few train-wrecks.[/quote]I think this offseason will bring a shocking level of inactivity.
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Demp, Garza, Wells, Cashner, Coleman, plus Marshall or F7 could always be stretched out to start. Not much outside of that, though.[/quote]I think Wells ends up being traded along with Soto to bring an upgrade; pitching or positional. Assuming Z is gone they need 3 SPs. They trade for 1 and sign 1 with the last spot going to a competition of F7/Cashner/Coleman. I’ll even go out on a limb and say Lopez gets a shot. There’s no reason he’s still on this team unless there’s something he’s doing they like.
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I think this offseason will bring a shocking level of inactivity.[/quote]That’s what I’m afraid of, too.
[quote name=JMan]I think Wells ends up being traded along with Soto to bring an upgrade; pitching or positional. Assuming Z is gone they need 3 SPs. They trade for 1 and sign 1 with the last spot going to a competition of F7/Cashner/Coleman. I’ll even go out on a limb and say Lopez gets a shot. There’s no reason he’s still on this team unless there’s something he’s doing they like.[/quote]I can’t imagine what they see. (dying laughing)
Don’t be surprised to see Marshall get touted as a candidate to fill one of those spots. Maybe why Hendry was so insistent on not trading him?
[quote name=josh]That’s what I’m afraid of, too.[/quote]I think there will be one big trade/signing. I agree with JMan that we could well see Soto dealt for pitching. But I think they make one big move for pitching and then sign a Candy Maldonado and a Rodney Myers and call it a winter.
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I think there will be one big trade/signing. I agree with JMan that we could well see Soto dealt for pitching. But I think they make one big move for pitching and then sign a Candy Maldonado and a Rodney Myers and call it a winter.[/quote]That’s pretty much what they did last winter.
[quote name=josh]That’s pretty much what they did last winter.[/quote]Yep.
http://www.csnchicago.com/08/14/11/Penas-still-pushing-for-Cubs-to-change-c/landing_insider_mooney_loud3r.html?blockID=548874&feedID=661
Pujols batting average —-> .288
Or, if we fixed it, it could be 2 or 288. It could go either way.
http://www.fortmorgantimes.com/fort-morgan-sports/ci_18439909?source=rss
interesting read
[quote name=Rice Cube]Pujols batting average —-> .288
Or, if we fixed it, it could be 2 or 288. It could go either way.[/quote]As much as I’m tempted to say, “shut up about batting average, since it doesn’t matter,” I must admit that I do follow Castro’s BA intently.
[quote name=ACT]As much as I’m tempted to say, “shut up about batting average, since it doesn’t matter,” I must admit that I do follow Castro’s BA intently.[/quote]
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/pujolal01.shtml
I only care because of arbitrary round number statistics that the sports shows keep spewing that describe how awesome Pujols is. Before this season he was good for .300, 30 HR + 100 RBI every season. He would’ve also been good for 100 runs scored per season if his surrounding cast hadn’t sucked in 2007 (he ended up scoring only 99, imagine that). The pretty round numbers don’t matter as much in player evaluation (well, the homers are pretty cool though) but that kind of consistency is hard to come by.
My love of round numbers goes back to the first game I remember seeing on TV: the last game of the Cubs’ 1991 season. Sandberg had his 100th RBI, and Dawson had his 30th (and 31st) home run.
To be fair, it’s really no more irrational or arbitrary than rooting for some random sports team to win a world championship.
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I can’t imagine what they see. (dying laughing)
Don’t be surprised to see Marshall get touted as a candidate to fill one of those spots. Maybe why Hendry was so insistent on not trading him?[/quote]Marshall should be in the rotation now so I can only hope he gets a shot at starting.
so the big names in our class yet to sign are Baez, Vogelbach, Maples & Dunston Jr. Get two of those and I think they did alright
Im betting we land Baez, Vogelbach & Dunston Jr.
But maybe with the Great One Jr and Rock Shoulders on board the Cubs will let Vogelbach walk
I saw a rumor today that Vogelbach wants $$$$$$.
its been reported for weeks he and the cubs have a handshake at 1.65 mill. But they signed Holiman this year for 1B, Gretzky is 1B. Shoulders got 3rd rnd money and is 1B. We are going to need some more minor league affiliates
[quote name=dylanj]its been reported for weeks he and the cubs have a handshake at 1.65 mill. But they signed Holiman this year for 1B, Gretzky is 1B. Shoulders got 3rd rnd money and is 1B. We are going to need some more minor league affiliates[/quote]
Or teach some of them how to pitch or play OF (dying laughing)
one of the worst parts of this years draft is how many blog for profits are sprouting up with bullshit.
You’ve got SB Nation, Bleacher Nation, ChicagoNOW, the beat writers blogs, baseball america all competing for the scoop. ChicagoNOW keeps reporting we have deals in place that we dont. Its maddening.
jimcallisBA Jim Callis
Yes on all three. @bkelz417: will #Cubs sign Tony Zych??? Haven’t heard anything? Plus any updates on Baez and Vogel”bomb” ? #mlbdraft
Dylan,
I dont think Rock, Great One Jr., and Holiman have any efgfect on Vogelbach.
I am assuming going into today that Baez, Vogelbach, and Zych are done deals.
if we get 1 of the following I am very happy (Maples, Jacquez, Dunston) 2 of the three I am estatic, all three i will believe there is a plan in place.
I really want Maples first and foremost more than the other kids though
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]For JG and DJ: http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/breaking/chi-49ers-to-bring-in-qb-culpepper-for-workout-20110814,0,2978695.story/quote
At what point does Harbaugh say Fuck it and suit up?
So did something happen with Zambrano over the weekend?
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]Dylan,
I dont think Rock, Great One Jr., and Holiman have any efgfect on Vogelbach.
I am assuming going into today that Baez, Vogelbach, and Zych are done deals.
if we get 1 of the following I am very happy (Maples, Jacquez, Dunston) 2 of the three I am estatic, all three i will believe there is a plan in place.
I really want Maples first and foremost more than the other kids though[/quote]I agree about Maples. I have serious concerns for the others. Vogelbach is already huge at this age and a 1st baseman. Most players move to the right on the defensive spectrum and the only place to the right for him is DH. Same for the other 1st basemen. Baez sounds more like a 2b/3b guy. Maples has front of the rotation potential. If I could only have one, I’d sign him.
[quote name=Dr. Aneus Taint]So did something happen with Zambrano over the weekend?[/quote](dying laughing)
Just got this posted for Breaking Bad fans: http://www.obstructedview.net/unobstructed-views/general/breaking-bad-shotgun.html
jimcallisBA Jim Callis
Bonus for #Cubs 25th-rder Rock Shoulders was $294k. State JC of Florida 1B led Fla jucos with 14 HRs this spring. #mlbdraft
20 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
[quote name=mb21]I agree about Maples. I have serious concerns for the others. Vogelbach is already huge at this age and a 1st baseman. Most players move to the right on the defensive spectrum and the only place to the right for him is DH. Same for the other 1st basemen. Baez sounds more like a 2b/3b guy. Maples has front of the rotation potential. If I could only have one, I’d sign him.[/quote]
Well the good thing to me is that Baez and Vogelbach are done but just waiting to go through.
I really hope the Maples leaving camp thing is true. I am really happy with Ricketts giving Wilken a blank check. I dont remember a draft like this
there is a poster at BCB who has some kind of actual source in the org. he called the Urban & Gretzky deals at 1-2 weeks before anyone heard of it and a few of the other lesser known picks as well. According to him
Dunston Jr- got 1st rnd money and is a go
Maples- 2 mill
Vogelbach- Done
Baez- Done
Ricky Jacques- Done (although callis said he didnt think it would happen)
(dying laughing) you must have had to wade through a mountain of shit to find that info, dj.
its the price you pay when your actual farm system is boring.
I’m not going to pretend to know shit about this draft. Okay, I don’t have to pretend. I know shit about this draft. But it seems like people who know more than shit are pleased with the prospects the Cubs are signing. Is there anyone who views this draft and all the signings as a reason to change/improve their opinions on Ricketts? Hendry? Wilken?
[quote name=dylanj]there is a poster at BCB who has some kind of actual source in the org. he called the Urban & Gretzky deals at 1-2 weeks before anyone heard of it and a few of the other lesser known picks as well. According to him
Dunston Jr- got 1st rnd money and is a go
Maples- 2 mill
Vogelbach- Done
Baez- Done
Ricky Jacques- Done (although callis said he didnt think it would happen)[/quote]
Which poster? I occasionally will peruse the minors shit cause al’s fagetness doesnt appear there.
However if we sign all of that. We would have to have had a top three draft with AZ and Toronto
[quote name=AndCounting]I’m not going to pretend to know shit about this draft. Okay, I don’t have to pretend. I know shit about this draft. But it seems like people who know more than shit are pleased with the prospects the Cubs are signing. Is there anyone who views this draft and all the signings as a reason to change/improve their opinions on Ricketts? Hendry? Wilken?[/quote]
Big fucking yes on Ricketts (if they sign em)
Big yes on Wilken (regardless)
hendry TBD
This would be a lot of money spent. Not only that it wont be money spent on wide receivers. It will be on kids for who the most part are baseball players. it seems to be a very Red Sox like approach
joeby something or other.
if we sign who its rumored we will then this is the biggest draft the Cubs have had since I’ve been following the team. We have been consistently paying over slot and already landed some tough signs. Its a good thing to see after last years fiasco
Interesting. That would definitely make it more palatable to see the Cubs exercise patience in next year’s free agent market. It won’t kill me if they go after Fielder/Pujols or anyone, but at least it lends credence to the professed focus on the farm system. Thanks, guys.
However if i find out we drafted all this talent with no real intent to sign them than it is going to be frustrating..
Also them not signing doesnt mean they didnt legit try. For example if we offer Maples 1.5 and he doesnt sign that means we tried really hard.
[quote name=dylanj]there is a poster at BCB who has some kind of actual source in the org. [/quote]
Alvin?
It changes my opinion somewhat of Ricketts, but the fact Wilken made these makes picks makes me more than cautious.
I look like a farmer, but, I’m a lover.
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]
Also them not signing doesnt mean they didnt legit try. For example if we offer Maples 1.5 yesterday and he doesnt sign today, that doesn’t mean the Cubs didn’t try.[/quote]Thanks, Alvin.
I can’t get over what a cunt Strasbrug is: http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/strasburg_disdainful_at_immaturity_of_13yr_old_boy/
Royals signed their 29th rounder for $675,000 (supplemental first round money).
[quote name=mb21]I can’t get over what a cunt Strasbrug is: http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/strasburg_disdainful_at_immaturity_of_13yr_old_boy//quote
(dying laughing)
(dying laughing)
(dying laughing)
What a fucking cunt. He’s 12 years old and on national television. I would have done the big balls dance around the bases twice.
strasburg is kind of silly but he has a point about throwing curves at that age. Its pretty irresponsible for a parent to let their kid do that.
[quote name=GBTS]Thanks, Alvin.[/quote]
I mean 1.5 for a 14th rounder is a fucking lot. If they offer some of these kids a fucking truck load of money and they decide rto play baseball i think we will know
Draft standings updated. The Cubs will soon become wholly uninteresting unless Ramirez clears out his locker and flips off Yosh Kawano or something.
[quote name=dylanj]strasburg is kind of silly but he has a point about throwing curves at that age. Its pretty irresponsible for a parent to let their kid do that.[/quote]
gfy
[quote name=Dick C. Recht]gfy[/quote]
no
[quote name=dylanj]no[/quote]
Maine——-> CHC
Jock-itch———>promoted to AA
[quote name=Dick C. Recht]gfy[/quote]
.
Tor stole TX recruit Matt Dean
[quote name=dylanj]strasburg is kind of silly but he has a point about throwing curves at that age. Its pretty irresponsible for a parent to let their kid do that.[/quote]It’s not nearly as irresponsible as allowing your child to ride a bike. I hate the argument that because curve balls cause damage to the ligament that could prevent them from playing the game professionally it means it shouldn’t be allowed. If that’s what we use to determine what is and is not allowed for children, take away the bikes, no more playing outside, no more going to school without a parent by your side and so on and so forth.
A lot more kids get seriously injured riding a bike than have ever been seriously injured throwing a fucking curve ball.
[quote name=mb21]It’s not nearly as irresponsible as allowing your child to ride a bike.[/quote]
Fascist.
.
[quote name=GBTS](dying laughing)
(dying laughing)
(dying laughing)
What a fucking cunt. He’s 12 years old and on national television. I would have done the big balls dance around the bases twice.[/quote]What makes me laugh is that I’m 36 and when I played Little League the league’s best power hitter was on my team and he literally walked to first base after taking a second or two to enjoy his home run. I was a pitcher and a catcher and when I pitched I threw primarily curves because kids that age can’t hit it. Every once in awhile they’d get lucky and catch up to my fastball, but they had no clue how to a hit curve. Throwing curve balls to 11 and 12 year olds is like MLB pitchers throwing curves to Shawon Dunston. I don’t know why anybody threw him anything other than a curve ball. He couldn’t have hit it if you told him it was coming, its location and its velocity.
Rogers on MLBPA grievance over Z’s suspension:
He also notes the MLBPA considers the Morrison issue to have precedence over the Z issue and may file a grievance on Morrison’s behalf before they file one on Z’s behalf.
Team Leader Ryan Dempster:
[quote name=Dr. Aneus Taint]Fascist.[/quote](dying laughing) I don’t think allowing your kid to rid a bike is irresponsible. I was just making a point. I always laughed at Will Carroll and his speeches about why kids shouldn’t be throwing curves. They’re fucking kids. They play the game for fun. 99.9999% of the kids that age won’t even play baseball after they turn 17. The last thing I’m going to do as a parent is tell my son he should not throw a curve because, well, if he practices really fucking hard he could get a big league job sometime. I’d like to teach my son to be realistic, to get a good education and to keep practicing something he loves. If or more likely when his talent becomes inferior to what’s needed, he’ll have the education and he’ll have had a lot of fun in the meantime.
If I care so much about my son getting injured throwing a curve, there’s no fucking way he’s ever riding a bike. None. I’d have to be a retarded parent to not let my kid throw a curve but allow him to rid a bike.
If you had a kid who had a legitimate chance at being a good ball player why let him throw that pitch at such a young age? Its not good for them and whats the pay off? Striking people out in pony ball. Who the fuck cares about that?
And I dont get your riding the bike comparison either. We are talking about kids who play baseball vs the general population.
..
I also nominate this for the new sidebar image:
Not only is he not riding a bike, he’s not walking to school by himself. He’s not driving. I don’t even know if I’d let him leave the house or get out of bed for that matter. If I’m so protective of him and not wanting him to damage a ligament that will almost certainly have no impact whatsoever on his future then I probably won’t let him get out of bed until he’s 18.
Any parent not allowing their kid to throw a curve ball should have their kid taken away immediately. I’m not joking.
We are talking about kids pitching in the little league WS MD. They aren’t your average kid. Even for kids who will never play beyond rec ball I think its a shitty idea. My best friend was the kid who grew up before anyone else. When we were 13 he was already 6-1 195. He threw very hard and had a great curve. He played on traveling teams and tourney teams. All his starts were what you would expect from a bigger kid with 2 real pitches-pure dominance. The problem was he fell in love with that pitch and by 14 had shoulder problems. He still turned out to be a great athlete. Was All State in football and played in the Shrine Bowl- got a college scholaship ect. But in HS when we would bench press it was a running joke about how his left side would finish the lift before his right side every single time. And its because he fucked his shoulder up at a young age over something that doesnt matter.
Any parent not allowing their kid to throw a curve ball should have their kid taken away immediately. I’m not joking.
worst thing I have every read
[quote name=mb21]Not only is he not riding a bike, he’s not walking to school by himself. He’s not driving. I don’t even know if I’d let him leave the house or get out of bed for that matter. If I’m so protective of him and not wanting him to damage a ligament that will almost certainly have no impact whatsoever on his future then I probably won’t let him get out of bed until he’s 18.
Any parent not allowing their kid to throw a curve ball should have their kid taken away immediately. I’m not joking.[/quote]
mb you’re bringing up all sort of childhood resentments about my parents not letting me walk to school, even though I lived 2 blocks away (dying laughing)
[quote name=mb21]What makes me laugh is that I’m 36 and when I played Little League the league’s best power hitter was on my team and he literally walked to first base after taking a second or two to enjoy his home run. I was a pitcher and a catcher and when I pitched I threw primarily curves because kids that age can’t hit it. Every once in awhile they’d get lucky and catch up to my fastball, but they had no clue how to a hit curve. Throwing curve balls to 11 and 12 year olds is like MLB pitchers throwing curves to Shawon Dunston. I don’t know why anybody threw him anything other than a curve ball. He couldn’t have hit it if you told him it was coming, its location and its velocity.[/quote]
I seem to remember commentators said he was an excellent curveball hitter if they were in the zone. Not necessarily a hanging curve, but just curves thrown for strikes. I may be wrong, but that’s what I remember.
If we get Maples signed i will be estatic.
I feel like the talent for him was insane. Hes the type of kid the Red Sox draft and sign. Not the type tyhe cubs draft and sign
[quote name=mb21](dying laughing) I don’t think allowing your kid to rid a bike is irresponsible. I was just making a point. I always laughed at Will Carroll and his speeches about why kids shouldn’t be throwing curves. They’re fucking kids. They play the game for fun. 99.9999% of the kids that age won’t even play baseball after they turn 17. The last thing I’m going to do as a parent is tell my son he should not throw a curve because, well, if he practices really fucking hard he could get a big league job sometime. I’d like to teach my son to be realistic, to get a good education and to keep practicing something he loves. If or more likely when his talent becomes inferior to what’s needed, he’ll have the education and he’ll have had a lot of fun in the meantime.
If I care so much about my son getting injured throwing a curve, there’s no fucking way he’s ever riding a bike. None. I’d have to be a retarded parent to not let my kid throw a curve but allow him to rid a bike.[/quote]
It’s not nearly as irresponsible as allowing your child to to play checkers.
[quote name=dylanj]If you had a kid who had a legitimate chance at being a good ball player why let him throw that pitch at such a young age? Its not good for them and whats the pay off? Striking people out in pony ball. Who the fuck cares about that?
And I dont get your riding the bike comparison either. We are talking about kids who play baseball vs the general population.[/quote]
DJ, if you think you can spot a kid at age 10 or 12 who can play professional baseball you’d be the greatest scout in the history of baseball. If you haven’t noticed over the past few years of following minor league baseball, these guys reach their peak at an early age and are passed by superior talent. It happens at age 10, 12, 16, 20, 22 and 24.
As for riding a bike, riding the damn thing could kill him, which would make it harder for him to have a big league job. Maybe the Cubs would draft a dead person, but none of the other 29 teams would.
Let me know when you have a child who wants to throw a curve ball. I’d like to know how you’re going to tell him he shouldn’t throw a curve ball and then how you’re going to make sure he doesn’t. i’d also like to know how you can reasonably argue it’s worth protecting his arm, but not his life by limiting the exposure to acts that can cause death like riding bikes, riding in a car, walking and so on.
http://www.bleachernation.com/2011/08/15/lack-of-walks-is-an-organization-wide-problem/
[quote name=Aisle424]I seem to remember commentators said he was an excellent curveball hitter if they were in the zone. Not necessarily a hanging curve, but just curves thrown for strikes. I may be wrong, but that’s what I remember.[/quote]You’re right. I had it completely wrong for him. He was really good at hitting curves, but couldn’t hit anything else. Sorry about that. I’m a fuck up.
[quote name=Mish]http://www.bleachernation.com/2011/08/15/lack-of-walks-is-an-organization-wide-problem/[/quote]
For the lazy:
And the big league club is at the bottom of the league, too. Ugh.
My kids would throw changeups instead of curveballs. They can learn curves later.
I’ll be hesitant for my children to ride a bike because they’re likely to be as clumsy, unoordinated, and have shitty balance just like me (dying laughing).
[quote name=Berselius]mb you’re bringing up all sort of childhood resentments about my parents not letting me walk to school, even though I lived 2 blocks away (dying laughing)[/quote]My parents didn’t let me do it for a long time even though we lived 4 blocks away. They let me walk with my brother, but he was 4 years older so when he moved beyond grade school I was back to walking with my Mom. Sucked. (dying laughing)
Let me know when you have a child who wants to throw a curve ball. I’d like to know how you’re going to tell him he shouldn’t throw a curve ball and then how you’re going to make sure he doesn’t. i’d also like to know how you can reasonably argue it’s worth protecting his arm, but not his life by limiting the exposure to acts that can cause death like riding bikes, riding in a car, walking and so on.
You have a unique way of looking at things. When my kid is that age and if he wants to play ball he isn’t throwing breaking pitches. At all. I dont care if he’s good or not. Its not good for his arm outside of baseball. And riding a bike or walking is something kids need to do to get from point a to b. You dont need to throw breaking pitches in pony ball.
[quote name=mb21]You’re right. I had it completely wrong for him. He was really good at hitting curves, but couldn’t hit anything else. Sorry about that. I’m a fuck up.[/quote]
No dinner for you
[quote name=Dr. Aneus Taint]My kids would throw changeups instead of curveballs. They can learn curves later.[/quote]this times 1,000
[quote name=Dr. Aneus Taint]It’s not nearly as irresponsible as allowing your child to to play checkers.[/quote]
Just so long as they don’t do it with chess pieces
I threw a fastball & palmball until I was 15. Then I tried a slider but realized I had quit growing and had no velocity. So I moved to 2B (dying laughing)
[quote name=dylanj]We are talking about kids pitching in the little league WS MD. They aren’t your average kid. Even for kids who will never play beyond rec ball I think its a shitty idea. My best friend was the kid who grew up before anyone else. When we were 13 he was already 6-1 195. He threw very hard and had a great curve. He played on traveling teams and tourney teams. All his starts were what you would expect from a bigger kid with 2 real pitches-pure dominance. The problem was he fell in love with that pitch and by 14 had shoulder problems. He still turned out to be a great athlete. Was All State in football and played in the Shrine Bowl- got a college scholaship ect. But in HS when we would bench press it was a running joke about how his left side would finish the lift before his right side every single time. And its because he fucked his shoulder up at a young age over something that doesnt matter.[/quote]That sucks for him, but it’s ridiculous to suggest it’s irresponsible for the parents to let their kid throw a curve. For one thing, he’s going to do it NO. MATTER. WHAT. Secondly, the last thing I want any parent doing to a child that age is preparing him to become a professional athlete. The people who do that are the parents who make it about them and not their child. In other words, they’re shitty parents.
Baseball is about fun and it doesn’t need old people who want their kid to make a lot of money and support them ruining it.
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]And the big league club is at the bottom of the league, too. Ugh.[/quote]
No, I don’t think that’s a reasonable conclusion. The lack of plate discipline in the organization might tell us more about the players than about the coaches, organization, etc.
[quote name=Berselius]I’ll be hesitant for my children to ride a bike because they’re likely to be as clumsy, unoordinated, and have shitty balance just like me (dying laughing).[/quote]Unoordinated? Is that like not having a y-axis component in an ordered pair? Are you 1-dimensional?
I’m confused.
you’re missing the point. Its not about being a pro or not. He still has a fucked up shoulder to this day. It affects his life outside of baseball. And there was no reason on earth for him to be throwing curves when we were 13. none. he was the best pitcher in Hesston KS for 2 years. Big fucking deal.
[quote name=WaLi]Unoordinated? Is that like not having a y-axis component in an ordered pair? Are you 1-dimensional?
I’m confused.[/quote]
I’m missing a t-axis (for typing)
[quote name=dylanj]I threw a fastball & palmball until I was 15. Then I tried a slider but realized I had quit growing and had no velocity. So I moved to 2B (dying laughing)[/quote]That’s too bad. I was throwing curves when I was 5. By the time I was 8 I was striking out kids who were 12 and 13. I wouldn’t trade that for anything. Hitting right-handed was too easy so I switched to left-handed when I was 10. Wouldn’t change that either. Only home run I ever hit was left handed. I was good for my age until i was about 15 at which point people passed me. I peaked when I was 15, which is funny and true. It’s the one thing we don’t often realize about prospects. It’s quite possible and maybe even likely that most of the guys the Cubs just drafted have already peaked. Same with every other team.
[quote name=dylanj]you’re missing the point. Its not about being a pro or not. He still has a fucked up shoulder to this day. It affects his life outside of baseball. And there was no reason on earth for him to be throwing curves when we were 13. none. he was the best pitcher in Hesston KS for 2 years. Big fucking deal.[/quote]Think about all those kids who rode a bike and died. Fucked their lives up pretty good. Even to this day, those dead kids lives are fucked up.
Irresponsible parents!
This maples thing is a big deal… I for once have hope
There was no reason to let the dead kid ride a bike. None. He was 13. He could have rode a bike when he turned 18, but now he can’t. he’s dead.
This is a stupid argument.
[quote name=ACT]No, I don’t think that’s a reasonable conclusion. The lack of plate discipline in the organization might tell us more about the players than about the coaches, organization, etc.[/quote]Ace also notes that it could perhaps reflect that the Cubs just don’t draft patient players/look for OB skills, with the thinkign that that is something players can learn.
While I agree it is foolish to attribute a single cause to this problem, there is something very amiss when the entire org is at or near the bottom in walks taken, at every level.
49ers ——————> Top 10 pick in the 2012 NFL Draft
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Ace also notes that it could perhaps reflect that the Cubs just don’t draft patient players/look for OB skills, with the thinkign that that is something players can learn.
While I agree it is foolish to attribute a single cause to this problem, there is something very amiss when the entire org is at or near the bottom in walks taken, at every level.[/quote]
They could just take the Moneyball approach.
“Tell your kids to start walking more or you’re fired.”
[quote name=Dr. Aneus Taint]49ers ——————> Top 10 pick in the 2012 NFL Draft[/quote]
on one preseason game?
[quote name=dylanj]on one preseason game?[/quote]Maybe on the basis of them bringing in Daunte Culpepper for a tryout.
[quote name=dylanj]on one preseason game?[/quote]
They slightly improved in talent, but slightly regressed in system knowledge.
But yeah, one one preseason game. I think they win 10 games and the division next year, though. And it might be with Kaepernick at starting QB.
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Maybe on the basis of them bringing in Daunte Culpepper for a tryout.[/quote]
(dying laughing)
Yeah, that didn’t help.
[quote name=Dr. Aneus Taint]49ers ——————> Top 10 pick in the 2012 NFL Draft[/quote]
Who’s the QB du jour?
Curves or no curves. My kid is having his right arm tied behind his back so he learns to pitch left-handed.
[quote name=Rice Cube]Who’s the QB du jour?[/quote]
The QB of the day.
Pryor is trying to get the NFL to make him eligible for the supplemental draft.
The Royals also signed there 4th rounder for nearly $700,000.
[quote name=Aisle424]The QB of the day.[/quote]
A ha ha ha.
I also wish I could throw better left-handed.
http://blogs.fayobserver.com/prepsplus/August-2011/Decision-for-Dillon-Maples-could-go-down-to-the-wi
[quote name=mb21]You’re right. I had it completely wrong for him. He was really good at hitting curves, but couldn’t hit anything else. Sorry about that. I’m a fuck up.[/quote]
He swung at enough pitches outside the zone to make it look like he simply couldn’t hit a curveball.
I miss Shawon Dunston. He was so much fun. I think I started being curmudgeony about the Cubs when they showed him the door. (Not that they should necessarily have kept him at that point, but their choice to go with Jose Vizcaino was hard to swallow). I hope the Cubs sign his kid and he’s half as much fun as Shawon.
AJ Morris is getting closer to coming back from TJ. He was a good pitcher up at K-State
There’s a certain irony to losing a clubhouse cancer (Zambrano) and finding the team in the midst of a useless winning pattern that will drop them out of the top 8 draft picks when a higher draft pick will actually help the team more.
Not that I know who the good draftees will be next year, but I figure a higher pick gives you the ability to pick the least shitty players anyway.
[quote name=mb21]http://blogs.fayobserver.com/prepsplus/August-2011/Decision-for-Dillon-Maples-could-go-down-to-the-wi[/quote]
I’m surprised the fact that Maples took a physical doesn’t disqualify him from playing in college, ever. That’s just two steps from (gasp) being in the same room as an agent
[quote name=Rice Cube]There’s a certain irony to losing a clubhouse cancer (Zambrano) and finding the team in the midst of a useless winning pattern that will drop them out of the top 8 draft picks when a higher draft pick will actually help the team more.
Not that I know who the good draftees will be next year, but I figure a higher pick gives you the ability to pick the least shitty players anyway.[/quote]
Everything I’ve heard is that it’s a pretty lousy draft class next year
Pretty sure someone tweeted pictures of Zambrano at the Atlanta airport on Sunday, so I don’t think they’ll be able to argue he wasn’t available.
[quote name=Berselius]I’m surprised the fact that Maples took a physical doesn’t disqualify him from playing in college, ever. That’s just two steps from (gasp) being in the same room as an agent[/quote]
As long as he didn’t sign his name on a sporting good, he should be OK.
Since the team is morphing into gritty-scrappy-hearty folk, we should make a “Colvin-O-Meter” to see if he can ever creep above .200 assuming Reed Johnson doesn’t take up all his playing time.
[quote name=AndCounting]Pretty sure someone tweeted pictures of Zambrano at the Atlanta airport on Sunday, so I don’t think they’ll be able to argue he wasn’t available.[/quote]
Yeah, Julie had the pic up in one of her posts this weekend
[quote name=Aisle424]The QB of the day.[/quote]
That sounds good. I’ll have that.
[quote name=AndCounting]Pretty sure someone tweeted pictures of Zambrano at the Atlanta airport on Sunday, so I don’t think they’ll be able to argue he wasn’t available.[/quote]
But he tried to bring shampoo on the plane, so he’s a terrorist.
[quote name=Berselius]Everything I’ve heard is that it’s a pretty lousy draft class next year[/quote]
Here’s hoping the teams above the Cubs draft shittier shit.
[quote name=AndCounting]Pretty sure someone tweeted pictures of Zambrano at the Atlanta airport on Sunday, so I don’t think they’ll be able to argue he wasn’t available.[/quote]I think Rogers is just ruminating on a counterfactual. Basically, the Cubs suspended Z too soon, in Rogers’ view, to make the suspension have a chance of sticking.
[quote name=Aisle424]Curves or no curves. My kid is having his right arm tied behind his back so he learns to pitch left-handed.[/quote]
That’s nearly as irresponsible as allowing your child to brush his teeth.
I was wrong, it was Saturday night.
https://twitter.com/#!/MattEdMoore/status/102516755431309312
[quote name=Berselius]Everything I’ve heard is that it’s a pretty lousy draft class next year[/quote]I don’t know how much I believe comments like that. Especially when we’re almost a year away from the draft.
[quote name=Berselius]Everything I’ve heard is that it’s a pretty lousy draft class next year[/quote]
Yeah, b, that draft sucks. It just plain sucks. I’ve seen drafts suck before, but it’s the suckiest suck that ever sucked.
[quote name=Dr. Aneus Taint]That’s nearly as irresponsible as allowing your child to brush his teeth.[/quote]
My kid will have his teeth pulled the moment they grow in. My dad died in a freak corn-on-the-cobb eating incident and I’ll be damned if I subject my kids to that.
[quote name=Dr. Aneus Taint]Yeah, b, that draft sucks. It just plain sucks. I’ve seen drafts suck before, but it’s the suckiest suck that ever sucked.[/quote]
I’ve gotta go. My damn weiner boss is here.
Regarding voiding Zambrano’s contract, it’s pretty difficult to make a case for “unacceptable behavior” when the contract in question is one you signed the man to less than two months after he physically assaulted a teammate.
You’d have to make a case that whatever has happened since then is worse than that transgression, which would be difficult to do. Of course, there’s no reason not to try – but I can’ see it working.
[quote name=AndCounting]I was wrong, it was Saturday night.
https://twitter.com/#!/MattEdMoore/status/102516755431309312
Wow. I hadn’t seen that before but that’s a pretty epic bailing from the team there. Got a carry-on and everything.
Does anyone even know where he is?
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]I think Rogers is just ruminating on a counterfactual. Basically, the Cubs suspended Z too soon, in Rogers’ view, to make the suspension have a chance of sticking.[/quote]Yeah, you’re right. Just trying to show it’s even less likely the Cubs’ punishment will stand. Hobbitan mentioned that Zambrano texted Cubs staff with messages of “good-bye and thank you,” which they would argue is evidence of his intent to retire. That struck me as utterly ludicrous. If your accusation against someone consists of cleaning out his stuff and mild pleasantries, I don’t think your case is all that rock-solid. (dying laughing)
[quote name=Anon]Regarding voiding Zambrano’s contract, it’s pretty difficult to make a case for “unacceptable behavior” when the contract in question is one you signed the man to less than two months after he physically assaulted a teammate.
You’d have to make a case that whatever has happened since then is worse than that transgression, which would be difficult to do. Of course, there’s no reason not to try – but I can’ see it working.[/quote]I agree. It will be virtually impossible to void the contract, but I’d try. No reason not to.
[quote name=Aisle424]My kid will have his teeth pulled the moment they grow in. My dad died in a freak corn-on-the-cobb eating incident and I’ll be damned if I subject my kids to that.[/quote]
That’s nearly as irresponsible as allowing your child to masturbate with a handful of broken glass.
[quote name=Dr. Aneus Taint]That’s nearly as irresponsible as allowing your child to masturbate with a handful of broken glass.[/quote]
They’ll never learn until they feel pain.
[quote name=Rice Cube]Wow. I hadn’t seen that before but that’s a pretty epic bailing from the team there. Got a carry-on and everything.
Does anyone even know where he is?[/quote]Z had already been suspended and told to stay away from the team at that point. That was taken Sunday. He suspended Saturday.
[quote name=Rice Cube]Wow. I hadn’t seen that before but that’s a pretty epic bailing from the team there. Got a carry-on and everything.
Does anyone even know where he is?[/quote]That same guy tweeted that he was originally headed for Houston and had to change his flight to Chicago. That could be a load of crap, but this picture was taken after he had been put on the DQ list and barred from having any contact with the team. So heading to the airport then was pretty much the only option.
The fact that he remained in Atlanta that long really only shows that he hadn’t completely abandoned the team.
I should add that I thought Rogers’ summary of the Zambrano story was pretty level-headed. It didn’t make me want to stab anyone.
[quote name=AndCounting]Yeah, you’re right. Just trying to show it’s even less likely the Cubs’ punishment will stand. Hobbitan mentioned that Zambrano texted Cubs staff with messages of “good-bye and thank you,” which they would argue is evidence of his intent to retire. That struck me as utterly ludicrous. If your accusation against someone consists of cleaning out his stuff and mild pleasantries, I don’t think your case is all that rock-solid. (dying laughing)[/quote]I don’t think the Cubs are going to tell us what they’re going to claim for what it’s worth. I’d be surprised if they have to pay him while on the disqualified list. Based on the terms of all mlb contracts, it’s fairly easy for the Cubs to argue that Zambrano violated them. Not once, but several times.
The anger management they paid for is surely to come into play as well. The Cubs attempted to get help and so on and so forth and it didn’t work blah blah blah. It wouldn’t surprise me to learn the Cubs covered their ass here by giving him the anger management and the suspension a year ago. They’ve been displeased with Zambrano for a long time and surely have had some plans to deal with it.
To be honest though, I don’t think any of it matters. Zambrano is never throwing another pitch for the Cubs and I’m not as convinced a some that he’ll even find a job elsewhere.
[quote name=AndCounting]Yeah, you’re right. Just trying to show it’s even less likely the Cubs’ punishment will stand. Hobbitan mentioned that Zambrano texted Cubs staff with messages of “good-bye and thank you,” which they would argue is evidence of his intent to retire. That struck me as utterly ludicrous. If your accusation against someone consists of cleaning out his stuff and mild pleasantries, I don’t think your case is all that rock-solid. (dying laughing)[/quote]Only the Cubs would go to war over text messages and comments to locker room lackeys. (dying laughing)
[quote name=Dr. Aneus Taint]That’s nearly as irresponsible as allowing your child to masturbate with a handful of broken glass.[/quote]
I have to pick my battles. I’ll be busy keeping them from being Cubs fans.
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Z had already been suspended and told to stay away from the team at that point. That was taken Sunday. He suspended Saturday.[/quote]It was taken Saturday
[quote name=AndCounting]this picture was taken after he had been put on the DQ list[/quote]
And to be honest, I actually don’t care whether they pay him or not. It’s a few million so it does’t really matter. It’s hard to imagine they get out of the contract so saving a few million isn’t a win.
[quote name=Rice Cube]They’ll never learn until they feel pain.[/quote]
YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT PAIN IS!
[quote name=mb21]It was taken Saturday[/quote]
Then I guess they’d have to figure out whether he was suspended before or after he was at the airport. I didn’t follow this whole Twitter/text message blah-blah so I don’t know.
[quote name=Aisle424]I have to pick my battles. I’ll be busy keeping them from being Cubs fans.[/quote]
Masturbating with glass would be better.
[quote name=Rice Cube]Then I guess they’d have to figure out whether he was suspended before or after he was at the airport. I didn’t follow this whole Twitter/text message blah-blah so I don’t know.[/quote]I didn’t follow it either. No idea what any of the tweets/texts were and don’t even care. (dying laughing)
As a side punishment, he’s forced to participate in DQ’s godawful commerical blitz.
[quote name=Berselius]As a side punishment, he’s forced to participate in DQ’s godawful commerical blitz.[/quote]
They need to work “they stinks” into that commercial as a dig to the competition. That would make me buy a DQ due to entertainment purposes alone.
[quote name=mb21]And to be honest, I actually don’t care whether they pay him or not. It’s a few million so it does’t really matter. It’s hard to imagine they get out of the contract so saving a few million isn’t a win.[/quote]Yeah, If I were Hendry, I’d have avoided the union beef and suspended him with pay, then immediately made it clear to Praver that if Z wanted to play next season, a buyout was going to happen on my terms, or Z was going to put it in writing that he’d waive his NTC, and I’d try and work a deal that entailed me sending less along than I planned to give Z in the buyout. Z’s cleared waivers, so he can be traded anywhere the Cubs please.
I kind of feel like Hendry really made a fucking mess of this by inviting yet another beef with MLBPA. 3 now in as many seasons. Wise the fuck up, Jim.
AceCubbie:
http://www.bleachernation.com/2011/08/15/report-dillon-maples-has-indeed-signed-with-cubs/
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Wise the fuck up, Jim.[/quote]
Unpossible.
I don’t think Hendry fucked up, MO. I don’t know what choice he had. I don’t think there’s any chance of a buyout. If Zambrano wants to pitch next year there’s just no reason for him to accept one. In all likelihood the Cubs are going to have to pay all $18 million of his contract next year. One way or another I think that’s true. So why not take a chance and see if you can save a few million this year and if you’re successful at that, try to void the contract? The Cubs have nothing to lose here so I don’t think they made a mistake.
[quote name=Berselius]As a side punishment, he’s forced to participate in DQ’s godawful commerical blitz.[/quote]I don’t just throw fastballs, I throw fastballs with a shark-monkey shoved into my colon.
[quote name=mb21]I don’t think Hendry fucked up, MO. I don’t know what choice he had. I don’t think there’s any chance of a buyout. If Zambrano wants to pitch next year there’s just no reason for him to accept one. In all likelihood the Cubs are going to have to pay all $18 million of his contract next year. One way or another I think that’s true. So why not take a chance and see if you can save a few million this year and if you’re successful at that, try to void the contract? The Cubs have nothing to lose here so I don’t think they made a mistake.[/quote]It just invited an unnecessary complication with union. Add in the fact that this is now 3 years in a row that Jim has decided to piss in MLBPA’s Wheaties, and it looks like a miscalculation.
I don’t think the suspension w/o pay will stick, given the nature of the offense (and the way I understand this per the CBA, past acts cannot be brought to bear, only act for which the punishment was issued), and voiding the contract is almost a metaphysical impossibility. So this seems like Hendry got mad, acted a bit rashly and now has a whole new problem.
It’s also going to seem a little disingenuous if the Cubs try and bring up the things Z did last year, for which he was suspended and the Cubs fought to union for the right to suspend him for, as a reason to once again suspend Z. I don’t think MLBPA is going to accept that, at all. So if all the Cubs have is Z leaving the locker room early, telling Soriano to GFH, and spouting off to a locker room guy and sending a few texts, it doesn’t seem to me that suspension w/o pay can stick, either, unless Hendry gets Praver to agree to it as part of a buyout negotiation.
Remember, past acts don’t matter here. All the Cubs can suspend Z for is what he did Friday night. The rest of the things he did only matter when Hendry sits down to negotiate a trade or a buyout.
[quote name=mb21]I don’t think Hendry fucked up, MO. I don’t know what choice he had. I don’t think there’s any chance of a buyout. If Zambrano wants to pitch next year there’s just no reason for him to accept one. In all likelihood the Cubs are going to have to pay all $18 million of his contract next year. One way or another I think that’s true. So why not take a chance and see if you can save a few million this year and if you’re successful at that, try to void the contract? The Cubs have nothing to lose here so I don’t think they made a mistake.[/quote]Plus disqualified specifically means he violated his contract. If they win that it’d be leverage to try to void the entire thing. I think they’ll definitely call up past history and show how forgiving they’ve been in the past toward his childishness. It’s like someone else said, they’re asking for the most from the team’s perspective, but they’ll probably be happy with just having to pay him less, in the end, and save a few dollars. Either way, he’s done as a Cub. You don’t do something like this if you’re trying to keep that bridge unburned.
[quote name=Mish]
[/quote]
Jeff —> +30 Contra (dying laughing)
So nothing new has been announced yet, I take it? We’re still in speculation mode?
The draft deadline was last night, when do the official announcements come down?
I think the deadline is tonight, Josh
[quote name=josh]So nothing new has been announced yet, I take it? We’re still in speculation mode?[/quote]Yep. Rogers says MLBPA is more pissed off about Morrison being demoted, so that may be grieved before Zambrano’s suspension. Cubs may have gotten an extra day to
get their shit togethermake sure apologies have been sent out to all 32 GMs. Except for Beinfest. Hendry should send him a box of his finest crullers for taking some of the salt out of MLBPA before they got to Jim. (dying laughing)[quote name=Work sucks]I think the deadline is tonight, Josh[/quote]Yep. I guess I got thrown off a day somehow.
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Yep. Rogers says MLBPA is more pissed off about Morrison being demoted, so that may be grieved before Zambrano’s suspension. Cubs may have gotten an extra day to
get their shit togethermake sure apologies have been sent out to all 32 GMs. Except for Beinfest. Hendry should send him a box of his finest crullers for taking some of the salt out of MLBPA before they got to Jim. (dying laughing)[/quote]Sweet. Hey, if more important things keep coming up, this could really work out for the Cubs.[quote name=josh]Sweet. Hey, if more important things keep coming up, this could really work out for the Cubs.[/quote]Maybe Jim should call the Pirates and tell them to demote McCutcheon again.
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]Maybe Jim should call the Pirates and tell them to demote McCutcheon again.[/quote]For hair unbecoming of a professional baseball athlete.
The pirates have two guys named McCutchen. They spell their last names the same way, and yet there is no “D” or “A” before the name like you usually see in that situation. I’m calling racism.
[quote name=josh]The pirates have two guys named McCutchen. They spell their last names the same way, and yet there is no “D” or “A” before the name like you usually see in that situation. I’m calling racism.[/quote]
It’s kind of obvious which McCutchen is which unless one of them shows up on the field in blackface.
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/sports/2011/08/11/balance-eye-test-and-baseball-sabermetrics-in-latin-america/
Cubs about to fall behind in Latin American scouting.
[quote name=Rice Cube]It’s kind of obvious which McCutchen is which unless one of them shows up on the field in blackface.[/quote]
Oh, and a jheri-curl wig might help with the disguise.
Bob Brenly has deigned to expound on Z from his perch atop the moral high ground: http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/chi-brenly-big-z-has-gotten-better-only-at-being-selfish-20110815,0,4411626.story
[quote name=Mish]
[/quote]
You tricked me. It’s only Tuesday.
Brad’s latest shows quite the confidence in UZR:
http://www.cubsstats.com/2011/08/remember-sam-fuld.html
Aaron Maybin ————> cut
SF should give him a tryout.
[quote name=Mish]Brad’s latest shows quite the confidence in UZR:
http://www.cubsstats.com/2011/08/remember-sam-fuld.html/quote
B-Ref says Fuld is worth 1.5 rWAR so far.
So basically, Sam Fuld would have been the most valuable Cub OF this season.
What a roster.
Seriously, Jim Hendry built a roster where Sam Fuld and Reed Johnson would have been the most valuable OF. WTF.
http://mlb.sbnation.com/2011/8/15/2364354/santiago-casilla-batting-video-jose-ceda-giants-marlins
(dying laughing)
(dying laughing)
(dying laughing)
(dying laughing)
[quote name=Rice Cube]B-Ref says Fuld is worth 1.5 rWAR so far.[/quote]Ah okay I figured it was lower.
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]So basically, Sam Fuld would have been the most valuable Cub OF this season.
What a roster.[/quote]
It was just a matter of injuries, MO. (dying laughing)
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]http://mlb.sbnation.com/2011/8/15/2364354/santiago-casilla-batting-video-jose-ceda-giants-marlins
(dying laughing)
(dying laughing)
(dying laughing)
(dying laughing)[/quote]Wow, that is hilarious. I’ve done the same thing pitching to girls who couldn’t hit in our co-ed softball league but I don’t get paid millions of dollars (dying laughing)
[quote name=Mish]Ah okay I figured it was lower.[/quote]
I usually like looking at rWAR over fWAR because I think they place too much of a weight on UZR and so the fWAR numbers just seem kind of weird sometimes. Not that I’m an expert or anything.
Delmon Young -> Tigers
Wow. This blows my mind for two reasons:
The Twins basically gave him away.
He either passed through waivers or passed down far enough to get to the Tigers.
I’m disappointed the Cubs didn’t claim him just to take him off the Twins’ hands. He’d be worth taking a flyer on in right field for now (he’d be awful but whatever) and then dump Soriano in the off-season and put Young in left.
but delmon young sucks. I rather have Byrd
bubbles is off to a concert.. Hopefully i will get home tongiht andsee some amazing shi
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/carlos-zambrano-pitched-too/
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]bubbles is off to a concert.. Hopefully i will get home tongiht andsee some amazing shi[/quote]Eat some ‘shrooms. You’ll see some amazing shit for sure.
[quote name=The Wreckard]Delmon Young -> Tigers
Wow. This blows my mind for two reasons:
The Twins basically gave him away.
He either passed through waivers or passed down far enough to get to the Tigers.
I’m disappointed the Cubs didn’t claim him just to take him off the Twins’ hands. He’d be worth taking a flyer on in right field for now (he’d be awful but whatever) and then dump Soriano in the off-season and put Young in left.[/quote]
Isn’t he also a behavioral problem? Or am I mixing him up with another Young?
[quote name=Aisle424]Isn’t he also a behavioral problem? Or am I mixing him up with another Young?[/quote]
Delmon’s had issues, as did his older brother Dmitri, who was also a Tiger.
[quote name=Aisle424]Isn’t he also a behavioral problem? Or am I mixing him up with another Young?[/quote]You are right, he threw a baseball bat at an umpire.
[quote name=WaLi]You are right, he threw a baseball bat at an umpire.[/quote]In the minors. He hasn’t had any major incidents in the majors, IIRC.
[quote name=Mercurial Outfielder]In the minors. He hasn’t had any major incidents in the majors, IIRC.[/quote]He’s black, MO. It’s a matter of when, not if.
/media’d
Zych signed for 400 K
[quote name=Mish]http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/carlos-zambrano-pitched-too/[/quote]
(dying laughing)
I think the thing that burns me up most about the Zambrano saga is this: the worst part of it is probably the media attention. How much did Zambrano leaving early in and of itself really affect the Cubs organization or any individual player? Probably a negligible amount. Had the Cubs as an org handled it differently–tell everyone to shut up, bring Carlos in, reprimand him privately, discuss their options going forward–it would have been a story, but a small one. Instead, they feed the media as much scandal fodder as they can, stage a media-leaked discussion with Z and his agent, file a grievance against the league, and turn the player they loathe most into the lead story for the next week, erasing any possibility of ever receiving anything of value from Zambrano ever again.
Do we really believe the Cubs have the market cornered on inconsolable athletes? No, it’s just the Cubs are the absolute worst at containing their drama. Yeah, a grown man should be expected to behave better than Zambrano has, but an organization as old and financially successful as the Cubs should be expected to handle stuff like this much, much better, long before it gets to the breaking point.
jimcallisBA Jim Callis
#Cubs sign 4th-rder Tony Zych for $400k. Louisville RHP has big arm (94-97 to 99), possible closer if he refines his slider. #mlbdraft
I need an intervention. I’m so tired of this Zambrano story but I can’t stop commenting on it. (dying laughing)
[quote name=Mish]He’s black, MO. It’s a matter of watermelon, not swimming.
/Mish‘d[/quote].
[quote name=bubblesdachimp]jimcallisBA Jim Callis
#Cubs sign 4th-rder Tony Zych for $400k. Louisville RHP has big arm (94-97 to 99), possible closer then starter then middle reliever then starter then injured if he refines his slider. #mlbdraft[/quote]
/Cubbed
i’ll keep it simple with Z. He was my favorite Cub and a ton of fun to watch. He is also an asshole and I dont want him back
[quote name=AndCounting]I need an intervention. I’m so tired of this Zambrano story but I can’t stop commenting on it. (dying laughing)[/quote]
Maybe you should just write a blog post.
[quote name=Rice Cube]Maybe you should just write a blog post.[/quote]I forget how to do that.
[quote name=Mish]http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/carlos-zambrano-pitched-too/[/quote]
That’s not quite how I remember Zambrano’s 2010 season…
Anyway, I’ve said this before, but when I see Z’s career BABIP again