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  • A Tale of Two Trade Deadlines

    [Billy Beane and Kevin Towers] operate, as ballplayers do, without a fear of failure. This year Beane found too many phone calls that came his way that sounded like this: "I have interest in one of your players and this is what I'm going to give you for him."

    "That's not deal-making," Beane said.

    It's name-your-own price. The art of the deal has been replaced by the science of the deal…

    I don’t know to whom Billy Beane was specifically referring to in the above quote, but I always imagine it was Theo Epstein or Andrew Friedman, maybe even Jed Hoyer. I know it wasn’t Jeff Luhnow, who wasn’t a general manager when the quote was made, but I get the impression that had he been, it still wouldn’t apply.

    There is only so much we can truly know about how a front office operates and does business, and just about all of it we deduce from outcomes. Who was drafted and signed? What trades were completed? To a lesser extent, the rumor mongers fill us in on who has been talking, but it’s always a little shady and a lot vague. For my money, this was the true genius of Moneyball, the book. Oh sure, the hook was the ascription of mythical powers to a handful of analytical techniques, but the meat was immersion inside a general manager’s world during free agency, the draft, and the trade deadline. Today’s hardcore baseball fan spends an inordinate amount of time putting himself in the GM’s shoes, but has surprisingly little information about what goes on there.* Many of our favorite analysts have even worked in front offices, but are silenced by unwritten codes of conduct and clearly written confidentiality agreements. They frequently tell us how much we don’t know, but rarely give specifics. The quote above is pulled from a rare gem written by Tom Verducci that puts those of us who care way too much at least in the neighborhood of the GM’s office. Here is another great one from Bloomberg Businessweek, of all places.

    *One of my favorite all time experiences as a sports fan was attending NBA summer league games in 2005 in Minneapolis. My friends and I happened to sit directly in front of then Milwaukee Bucks GM Larry Harris during one of the games. For about two hours, we eavesdropped on conversations with colleagues and assistants as well as phone calls with people around the league. Harris talked about decisions he made in the draft (Ersan Ilyasova over Ryan Gomes because he was “younger and longer”), who he was regretting missing out on (“Kleiza is looking fantastic so far”), and other minutia. It was completely lacking in any groundbreaking information or scandalous gossip, and it was wonderful.

    If Theo and Hoyer had a child, he'd apparently look like Val Kilmer

    Despite all this lack, my mind is convinced it has the full picture of who Theo Epstein and Jed Hoyer are and how they operate. They are misers that drive hard bargains. Not unfriendly, mind you, but cordial, professional, and uncompromising. They have absolutely no qualms about asking the moon for players that are obviously playing above their talent level, and they will relentlessly work the phones in search of a mark. Negotiating with them will not be easy or fun. You may get the impression that they know something that you don’t. “I mean, they have all that expensive analytical technology on their side … That has to count for something, right? For goodness sakes, former colleagues publicly worry about getting fleeced by Theo.” I imagine other GMs sigh when Theo or Jed gets on the phone. “I want what they are selling, but this isn’t going to be easy… Cancel all my golf outings between now and the deadline, this thing is gonna go down to the wire…I would rather be negotiating with Theo’s stalker, to be honest…”

    Theo and Jed are driven by a singular, overriding goal: to acquire impact talent in a world where it’s increasingly unavailable. They recognize that their job depends on one thing only, turning this thing around as soon as possible. The public trust is not going to last long, so the sooner they can build a solid foundation, the better. To get there, a lot of things are going to have to break in their favor, and if a few business relationships are damaged in the process, that’s just the cost of doing business. “After all we ask of our players: to work harder then anyone else, do the little things, always compete, how can we possibly justify not doing the same? And if other teams don’t value their players as well as we do, whose fault is that?”

    And despite his portrayal in Moneyball as all-knowing and a little bit conniving, I don’t think Billy Beane is like that. After all, there was a little pushback in the industry following the book’s publication, but it was more from talking heads than anyone else. Kenny Williams was unmercifully portrayed in the book, but it didn’t stop him from continuing to trade with Beane. In fact, Beane still pulls off as many trades as anyone, enough to make me think the portrayal was at least incomplete.

    I think Beane is a lot like Jeff Luhnow. Luhnow was hired this past offseason by the Astros into a situation that makes for natural comparison with the Cubs. Both teams stink. Both are in big markets. Neither can count on imminent relief from the farm system. Both regimes are taking their teams through an organization-wide rebuilding process. Both seem to be on the cutting edge of analytics.

    Yet Luhnow’s approach seems to contrast with Thoyer’s. He didn’t make a big splash in international free agency. Heaven help the team that tried to keep up with the cubs in chasing Cubans, but even in the capped IFA market the Astros eschewed the top prospects and signed a handful of lesser known players, whereas the cubs invested heavily in two big names. In the draft, the Cubs paid overslot for the guy they thought was the best player in the draft, while the Astros underslotted Carlos Correa with the first overall pick and as a result were able to lure supplemental pick Lance McCullers away from a strong commitment to Florida.

    Which brings us to the trade deadline. Luhnow wasn’t doing much at all on Tuesday; he was already finished. My mind has him pegged as reasonable and easy to deal with. He knows he doesn’t have a lot to sell, so he takes advantage of any opportunity that presents itself. He moves early and isn’t concerned about winning every deal. After all, acquiring top prospects is pretty damn impossible these days. “Why not just focus on the prospects that we like, rankings be damned, get as many as we can, and hope a few pan out. Instead of wasting time haggling, lets make these moves as quickly as possible, put Cordero in the closer role, and guarantee ourselves the number one pick next year.” Other teams enjoy dealing with him and have a good idea of what to expect; they know they can turn to him first if they need to get something done quickly. Even famously abrasive internet personalities fawn over their experiences working with him.

    These caricatures are certainly wrong to some extent. And Luhnow probably has stricter budgetary restrictions to consider than the Chicago duo. But I think there is a valid comparison to be made here. Both started out with poor major league talent. Luhnow made six in-season trades, Thoyer five (by my count, including the Byrd deal and buying Germano). The Astros acquired 14 prospects, the Cubs 5.

    Which is the better strategy? My gut is going with Thoyer. I mean, I can’t believe they got Arodys Vizcaino for Paul Maholm and Reed Johnson. On the other hand, with Thoyer types seemingly propagating around the league, maybe there’s an opportunity here for someone with a more old-school way of doing business.

    80 Responses to “A Tale of Two Trade Deadlines”

    1. 1 Mercurial Outfielder says:

      Sounds to me like Beane is chafing from some role reversal.

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    2. 2 WaLi22 says:

      Great read. Who were the quotes come from?

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    3. Rizzo the Rat 3 Rizzo the Rat says:

      The Reds seem to be winning a lot of games lately.

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    4. Rice Cube 4 Rice Cube says:

      +1 LSA forgot the meme’d

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    5. Rice Cube 5 Rice Cube says:

      So apparently this Villanueva kid likes to hit homers.

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    6. mb21 6 mb21 says:

      I just saw Pujols do something I’m not sure I’ve ever seen him do before. 2-0 count in an obvious situation in which he’s being pitched around with Trout at 3rd and 1 out. Low and outside and he sticks his bat out there and flies softly to RF to get Trout in. He wasn’t really trying to hit the ball. Just sticking the bat out there to get it in the air.

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    7. mb21 7 mb21 says:

      I think Luhnow has mostly been trading crap. Wandy Rodriguez is the exception and I think he’s underrated, but the fact I think that probably means he’s not all that valuable in a trade.

      I’m interested to see which draft philosophy pays off the most. Hopefully it’s something the Astros keep doing so we can see how it works over several years.

      Great writeup, GW.

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    8. mb21 8 mb21 says:

      @ mb21:
      It was the 1st inning.

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    9. 9 Mercurial Outfielder says:

      @ mb21:

      I think he’s still pressing, trying to live up to that contract.

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    10. 10 Mobile Rodrigo says:

      So Dempster has already given up a homer. He should get used to that. Especially in Arlington.

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    11. 11 gw 22 says:

      Thanks for the kind words, all.

      @ WaLi22:
      The opening quote is from the Verducci piece. The quotes within the body are just a device, imagined reactions to my caricatures.

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    12. 12 Recalcitrant Blogger Nate says:

      @ Mobile Rodrigo:

      Its kinda weird seeing both he and Soto playing together for someone else

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    13. mb21 13 mb21 says:

      @ Mobile Rodrigo:
      He was nervous that 1st inning, left a lot of balls up in the zone, some missed badly. Probably realized after the Rangers scored a quick run back that the game wasn’t over. He’s used to being a Cub and when you get down 2 you may as well shower and go home. Threw some nasty pitches in the 2nd. It’s weird watching this game considering tv’s focus on the batter/pitcher. All you see when Dempster is on the mound is Dempster, the batter and Soto. It’s like watching a Cubs game except there are better players all around them. (dying laughing)

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    14. 14 Mercurial Outfielder says:

      Dempster was blindsided by the AL and has requested to go to the Dodgers.

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    15. mb21 15 mb21 says:

      @ Recalcitrant Blogger Nate:
      It’s really weird. It’s even stranger when you factor in the crowd noise. It’s like it’s the 2008 Cubs.

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    16. 16 Mercurial Outfielder says:

      mb21 wrote:

      @ Mobile Rodrigo:
      He was blindsided that 1st inning, the media were too quick to report things, he didn’t have time to mull over his pitches. Probably realized after the Rangers scored a quick run back that the Dodgers really don’t want him.

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    17. 17 Mercurial Outfielder says:

      @ mb21:

      Similar uniform colors don’t help, either.

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    18. mb21 18 mb21 says:

      Wilson just got bailed out the by the ump on a 3-2 pitch with the bases loaded. Should have been a walk, ump called it a strike. Didn’t matter that much as Young just drove in 2.

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    19. mb21 19 mb21 says:

      Soto up for the 2nd time this inning (singled to lead it off

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    20. 20 Mercurial Outfielder says:

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      Holy screaming eagle shit (wait for strike 3):



      Download | Convert YouTube to MP3

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    21. Rice Cube 21 Rice Cube says:

      Looked like Soto hit it about as hard as one can without getting the ball out of the park according to Gameday.

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    22. 23 Mobile Rodrigo says:

      @ mb21:

      It’s too bad I can’t watch. I’d like to see that.

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    23. 24 Recalcitrant Blogger Nate says:

      @ Rice Cube:
      I believe that was what they call a “plus curve”

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    24. mb21 25 mb21 says:

      @ Rice Cube:
      deepest part of the field, just shy of the fence.

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    25. mb21 26 mb21 says:

      @ Mobile Rodrigo:
      You get the benefit of it being two teams fighting for a division title and it’s two very good teams. Plus, there’s Pujols and Hamilton. Then you’ve got Trout while Olt’s making his big league debut.

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    26. Rice Cube 27 Rice Cube says:

      @ Recalcitrant Blogger Nate:
      I wouldn’t know what to do with that pitch either (dying laughing)

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    27. Rizzo the Rat 28 Rizzo the Rat says:

      @ mb21:
      Weighted random number generators get nervous?

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    28. Rizzo the Rat 29 Rizzo the Rat says:

      Demp is really struggling, but still has the lead.

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    29. mb21 30 mb21 says:

      @ Rizzo the Rat:
      First pitch he threw was over Trout’s head. A couple pitches later Soto was giving him the same calm down signs he often gave Z. He was definitely nervous.

      Hasn’t been nervous since and has struggled the last 2 innings.

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    30. mb21 31 mb21 says:

      rought night for Dempster.

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    31. Rice Cube 32 Rice Cube says:

      Slugfest eh.

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    32. 33 Mercurial Outfielder says:

      @ Rice Cube:
      More like a curve that flipped a middle finger to every living physicist on its way to the plate.

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    33. 34 Mercurial Outfielder says:

      @ mb21:

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    34. 35 Mercurial Outfielder says:

      Recalcitrant Blogger Nate wrote:

      @ Rice Cube:
      I believe that was what they call a “plus curve”

      As they say in the old country, “Indeed” (dying laughing)

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    35. 36 Mercurial Outfielder says:

      Somebody should have told Ryan Dempster that regression to the mean is just a guideline.— robneyer (@robneyer) August 3, 2012

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    36. 38 Mercurial Outfielder says:

      Yasiel Puig just tripled on the first pitch he saw – didn’t even square it up but still sent it about 400 feet to the LCF track— keithlaw (@keithlaw) August 3, 2012

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    37. Rice Cube 39 Rice Cube says:

      Carlos Lee told a funny joke.

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    38. 40 Mercurial Outfielder says:

      @ Rice Cube:

      Either that or told them when dinner was.

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    39. mb21 41 mb21 says:

      The other day we were talking about the age of college kids when they enter the draft. I was thinking that the draft eligible freshman, which is rare now, might become more common in 15, 20 years or more. As more parents redshirt their children (hold them back from kindergarten) the age of a freshman is going to increase. I wonder if the draft eligible freshman becomes as common as the draft eligible sophomore if they’ll make changes to the draft.

      Then again, the rules are probably going to be different by then anyway so it doesn’t matter.

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    40. mb21 42 mb21 says:

      Villanueva had a great Cubs debut. Not so much for Brigham.

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    41. mb21 43 mb21 says:

      I was hoping both Henricks and Villanueva would be sent to Tennesse. At the very least I wanted to see Hendricks at AA.

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    42. 44 Mercurial Outfielder says:

      We have discovered how our Facebook wall got hacked. Todd set the password as “1-2-3-4-5″.— Not Tom Ricketts (@NotTomRicketts) August 3, 2012

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    43. mb21 45 mb21 says:

      If there’s no strategy in the AL I couldn’t have just seen back to back pinch hits.

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    44. Rice Cube 46 Rice Cube says:

      @ Mercurial Outfielder:
      That’s amazing! That’s the same combination I have on my luggage!

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    45. 47 Mercurial Outfielder says:

      @ mb21:
      PAY NO ATTENTION TO THAT MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN!

      /DH haters

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    46. mb21 48 mb21 says:

      I’ve also seen some mid-inning relief changes tonight. So. Much. Strategy.

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    47. mb21 49 mb21 says:

      It’s a significantly different game in the AL. The infield was in with runners on 2nd and 3rd and the pitcher pitched around the batter to load the bases. In the NL they’d come up with some strategy in which the infielders would play closer than usual, but not in, and they’d be careful with the batter, but not pitch around him. Very different strategies.

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    48. mb21 50 mb21 says:

      What?! Reliever doesn’t do the job and he’s taken out. The AL is just trying to copy the NL now. It’s so obvious.

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    49. 51 Mercurial Outfielder says:

      @ Rice Cube:

      That’s amazing! So does Crane! RT @argonzo:I have the same combination on my luggage.— Not Tom Ricketts (@NotTomRicketts) August 3, 2012

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    50. Rice Cube 52 Rice Cube says:

      @ Mercurial Outfielder:
      They must be surrounded by Assholes.

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    51. 53 Mercurial Outfielder says:

      @ Rice Cube:

      Well, it is Wrigley Field, so….

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    52. SVB 56 SVB says:

      MB hasn’t had enough time to snark lately. Or maybe it’s the Woodford Reserve.

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    53. 57 Mercurial Outfielder says:

      (dying laughing) how Cubs would it be for Geo Soto to turn out to be the jewel in the pair trades between the Cubs and and the Rangers? (dying laughing)

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    54. SVB 58 SVB says:

      Mercurial Outfielder wrote:

      @ Rice Cube:
      Either that or told them what dinner was.

      fixed

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    55. SVB 59 SVB says:

      Don’t look now: Soto’s BA is over .200

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    56. SVB 60 SVB says:

      Good thing Texas got Dempster so Oswalt could win a game.

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    57. Berselius 61 Berselius says:

      @ SVB:

      Don’t tell me when to look

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    58. WaLi 62 WaLi says:

      mb21 wrote:

      The other day we were talking about the age of college kids when they enter the draft. I was thinking that the draft eligible freshman, which is rare now, might become more common in 15, 20 years or more. As more parents redshirt their children (hold them back from kindergarten) the age of a freshman is going to increase. I wonder if the draft eligible freshman becomes as common as the draft eligible sophomore if they’ll make changes to the draft.

      To be a draft eligible freshman, you would have to be 21 (or 45 days until 21) at the day of the draft. There is no way in hell I am purposely holding back my kid so he can be a 20 yo HS senior.

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    59. WaLi 63 WaLi says:

      @ WaLi:
      If my kid is a 20 yo HS senior, chances are he flunked a grade or two and isn’t going to college.

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    60. mb21 64 mb21 says:

      @ WaLi:
      I’m just pointing out how redshirting children may affect college aged athletes. It may have no impact but my guess is if you have parents who feel their children have to be superior to other kids in the class that these are the same parents who have their kids taking batting practice 5 hours a day.

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    61. mb21 65 mb21 says:

      There is already the occasional draft eligible freshman http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=dwyer-001chr&mobile=false

      There will be more if the trend of redshirting continues.

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    62. 66 Chet Masterson says:

      In a lot of ways, the first quote on this post reminds me of the column Phil Rogers wrote once lamenting how the GM meetings used to be awesome drunk fests where GMs showed up still drunk to the Rule 5 draft and all deals were made on cocktail napkins. Now he said they suck because they were ruined by the genius GMs and their laptops and fancy educations.

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    63. WaLi 67 WaLi says:

      @ mb21:
      I’m not going to lie, I have thought about when I have kids to start them late rather than early so they are older for the grade. But that’s because I was 17 when I graduated HS which kind of sucked, especially for playing sports. But I wouldn’t hold them back 3 years.

      I’d be afraid my kid may have sex with a freshman and be charged for statuatory rape (dying laughing)

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    64. 68 Mercurial Outfielder says:

      @ Chet Masterson:
      Exactly. Beane sounds like he’s telling these damn kids to get off his lawn.

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    65. mb21 69 mb21 says:

      @ WaLi:
      What I’m saying is that each draft there are a number of draft eligible sophomores. Quite a few. If parents are holding their kids back until their older then there will not only be more draft eligible sophomores, but more draft eligible freshmen. Is it enough that will matter? I have no idea. It’s relatively new, or at least new in that it’s being done quite frequently so we won’t know for some time and in all likelihood the draft is considerably different by then anyway. The kids being held back aren’t being held back because of academics even if some parents try to argue it is. They’re being held back in communities in which athletics are very popular and extremely competitive. They’re being held back to give them an edge athletically. This may not matter at all. It may mean that these are the kids that are more likely to be draft prospects. It might now. I have no idea.

      Because of this redshirting, which I’m guessing happens in communities in which athletics are highly important leading to more scholarships and players drafted (just a hunch) in various sports, the age of these players will be older than they have been. The kids being redshirted could be the kids that have zero chance of that. I have no idea and no way to know. All I know is if the age of the graduate is higher the draft eligible freshman becomes more common. Common in that it will happen all the time? No, but common enough that going to a 4-year school binds them to that school becoming irrelevant? Probably not, but maybe.

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    66. Suburban kid 70 Suburban kid says:

      WaLi wrote:

      I’d be afraid my kid may have sex with a freshman and be charged for statuatory rape

      I hear that!

      Oh wait

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    67. mb21 71 mb21 says:

      I don’t think Beane is too broken up about it. As GW pointed out, he still makes tons of trades. I think it was just an observation and an interesting one in that we can see how front offices have evolved in some small way. I don’t think it says anything about Beane. It’s two sentences.

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    68. mb21 72 mb21 says:

      Suburban kid wrote:

      I’d be afraid my kid may have sex with a freshman and be charged for statuatory rape

      That can happen now. I’m pretty sure it has and I think it happened at the school I graduated from a couple years after I graduated. 18 year old and 15 year old had been dating for a year (17 and 14) and the parents got all pissy right after he turned 18. Don’t remember how that turned out, but the way I always heard it was that the parents hated the kid from the start and saw this opportunity to break them up.

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    69. Mish 73 Mish says:

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    70. Mish 74 Mish says:

      If anyone is looking for a quicker way to kill brain cells than drinking turpentine, you can click thru to the original article from BTF:

      http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/newsstand/discussion/coppack_theo_what_have_ya_done_for_us_lately#When:13:41:08Z

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    71. Rice Cube 76 Rice Cube says:

      @ Mish:
      What the fuck was that?

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    72. Suburban kid 77 Suburban kid says:

      When I was over 18 I went out with someone under 18. I won’t say what the age diff was but it wasn’t a year or two.

      Nothing bad happened to anyone, although I shudder to think that it could have. I assume based on the similarity of words that there is a statute of limitations on statutory rape.

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    73. WaLi 78 WaLi says:

      @ Suburban kid:
      I think (at least in Florida) there are age limitations. So it is not automatically anyone over 18 having sex with anyone under 18 is rape.

      I had to look this up because my brother was dating a younger girl (dying laughing)

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    74. 79 gw 22 says:

      @ mb21:

      My thoughts exactly.

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