At least we’ll know not to get our hopes up next season. Right? Guys?
Trade Season Reactions
Josh is the greatest living writer you've never heard of. Also, he likes bugs.
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205 Responses to “Trade Season Reactions”
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Vitters is in a platoon with Luis Valbuena. The more things change with this team, the more they stay the fucking same. The stupid will just never end. Fucking Cubs. Motherfucking Cubs and their stupid fucking bullshit.
@ Mercurial Outfielder:
Maybe they’re just trying to make Valbuena look good for a waiver trade!
/Will never stop feeding the Hope Monster
How has Bubbles not given the Hope Monster diabetes by now?
I don’t have a huge problem with it as long as that isn’t a long term plan. Eventually the guy is going to have to hit righties since 80% (I’m just guessing) of pitchers are right handed.
After Jackson’s display last night, I could be talked into having him sit against lefties for a bit too. I think his patience still makes him viable against lefties and I don’t want them to rush to that judgement, but if they did, I wouldn’t kick and scream about it.
I think they are trying to give these guys a taste of success before throwing them into the deep end and that’s fine with me on an intellectual level.
As a fan, I want to see them both in the fucking lineup on Thursday night when I go because I didn’t pay less than 50% of face on Stubhub to watch Luis Valbuena and Joe Mather go 0 for 4.
1.) Bring up prospect who has struggled vs. RHP
2.) Don’t let him face RHP
3.) ?????????
4.) PROFIT
The Hope Monster is enjoying himself. Is the monster a he or she? We should clear that up.
@ Mercurial Outfielder:
I’m pissed about this too. He’s had decent at bats so far and had that one awesome play last night.
Let him fucking play. How will he ever work out his issues sitting on the bench.
@ mb21:
The Olympics won’t let the Hope Monster compete until we figure this out.
The Hope Monster is one of three genders: hope, wishes, and dreams. When the three combine they create all that is good and pure in human children. Obviously, so they can feed off the adults later. They are essential for human reproduction, so you could say that the human race is actually composed of five genders.
I think we can use the generic “he” when pronouns become convenient.
@ Mercurial Outfielder:
I don’t think it’s a big deal. Mike Olt is in a platoon at a position that makes him much less valuable and he’s a better prospect. This time of year it’s more about development and playing every day for one more month isn’t necessarily better for a player than facing MLB pitchers on a semi-regular basis. It might be better for them to come up and get their feet wet in this situation so they’re more familiar with it. It’s definitely not going to affect their development. That’s been the only reason I’ve cared about not playing prospects in the past, but there’s a month to go in the minor league season. Doesn’t much matter if he plays every day for a month and then sits on his ass in September or plays on occasion at the big league level from this point forward.
If he has a great game against a lefty he’ll be in there vs a righty. He’ll get his chance. He’s just 22 and it’s not uncommon for prospects to come up this time of year and get their feet wet by platooning.
@ Rodrigo Ramirez:
Exactly. If this was the plan, leave him at Iowa and let him get his AB. I’d rather put my dick in deli slicer than watch another Luis Valbuena AB.
Well, they face Mike Leake on Thursday so I probably won’t see Vitters’ home debut unless he pinch hits against Chapman or Marshall. Awesome.
@ mb21:
I don’t understand the logic behind bringing a guy up to develop him, and then prevent him from working on the thing he struggles with in a game situation. It’s asinine.
@ Aisle424:
He’ll figure out to hit RHP by not facing any RHP. Let’s See What Happens.
@ Mercurial Outfielder:
False.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/06/hammer-thrower-could-become-first-transgender-u-s-olympic-athlete/
My celebrity sights include:
Penny Hardaway at Martin Lawrence “Runteldat” tour.
William “the refrigerator” Perry at Atlanta airport.
Michael Jordan filmed a commercial at the McDs across the street from me in 1990.
My bro saw Lovie Smith at the American Dolls store downtown in June. He said Lovie was cool as shit. Talked to him about the upcoming season and took a picture with my bro and nephew.
Excilarating fable, mate.
@ WaLi22:
But that’s only because he is still genetically female. Athletes that have already begun the transition or are genetically hermaphroditic are not allowed to compete.
@ mb21:
i’m guessing they don’t care for him that much as a prospect, either. lord knows they have had no particular affinity for the rest of hendry’s picks. if he tears up lefties for a month, might help in moving him this offseason.
@ Mercurial Outfielder:
I’d like to see him not look foolish against a lefty before I get all riled he isn’t facing righties. He has not looked comfortable in any of his at-bats yet. Jackson has had some nice at-bats (until they ended in striking out), but Vitters has pretty much looked overmatched so far. I don’t see any reason to exacerbate his struggles by showcasing the weak part of his game.
@ Aisle424:
He’s started slow at nearly every level. He needs AB to get a feel. Sitting on the bench does him no good. You don’t learn to hit ML pitching except by facing ML pitching.
@ Mercurial Outfielder:
I’m sure he’s working on it and it’s clear the Cubs spent a great deal of time considering their options here and all of them agreed coming up now was better for him than playing another month in the minor leagues.
If there’s any argument against calling them up now and using them however they want, it’s that it starts their arb clock earlier than calling them up in September. This would be true whether they’re playing every day or not. As far as development goes, this will have no negative impact and might actually be a positive. I just don’t see the arguments for this being a terrible decision at this point in the season. It’s something that teams do and have done for some time. My guess is Vitters is going to learn a lot more by spending an extra month at the big league level than he’d learn playing every day in the minor leagues. It’s just a guess, but I know 60 more PA against righties in the minors isn’t going to make or break his career.
The Cubs are concerned in two different ways with Vitters. There’s obviously something they’ve seen or been told by scouts that makes him vulnerable to righties. Then there’s the defense and while he made a great play last night, it doesn’t mean his defense is questionable.
@ mb21:
Then he’s not ready and shouldn’t be up here. If they aren’t ready to play him, don’t bring him up. Simple.
Here’s my question, MB: ok, so it doesn’t hurt his development…but how does it help it? What is the benefit of riding the pine when he could be getting regular AB at Iowa?
Castro hitting 5th tonight. I like that. Seems like a good spot for him, plus it takes some pressure off him while he’s struggling.
@ GW:
They’re certainly not that high on him. There was talk they wanted a really good 3B prospect before the deadline when they were talking with the Tigers. Then they acquired a 3B prospect (probably not as good as they hoped) for Dempster. It seems to me they’ve been trying to fill that position and have viewed it as a weakness and not a strength. It does make me wonder if they now think Baez can stick at SS considering they did want a 3B prospect. Hope he can, but from what most scouts have said he’s a future 3B.
@ Mercurial Outfielder:
There are a number of reasons it may help. Being around big leaguers who can express things to him that may help him more than being around a bunch of minor leaguers. He’s around better coaches. He’s facing better talent. I don’t know if it helps or not. I know some players have said being up at the big leagues has helped them tremendously so I think there’s something to it, but maybe not. My whole point is that it’s not going to negatively affect his development.
@ mb21:
My position is that if it’s not helping him hit RHP, it’s hurting.
@ Mercurial Outfielder:
Have we ever considered the idea that the Cubs believe his future is as a platoon player? I wouldn’t be surprised if they came to that conclusion. He’s not very good defensively or on the bases so playing regularly against righties who have made him look pretty bad at times in his career probably doesn’t provide a great deal of value. Even midseason this year I was looking at him like a platoon player and still think that’s most likely what he ends up being. I think it would suck if he never gets a shot to prove me wrong (or prove them wrong), but it wouldn’t be too surprising if they came to that conclusion.
Not every player who comes up gets a chance to shine against same handed pitchers. I think it would be unfortunate if Vitters never did, but it wouldn’t be surprising either.
I also don;t think they’re high on Vitters. But that’s a dumb reason to give PA to Luis fucking Valbuena.
@ mb21:
Maybe so. But they’ll never find that out by deciding it before he ever gets a chance to face ML RHP on a regular basis. Unless THoyer can know skill sets a priori.
Vitters also isn’t going to get any better as a trade piece by the Cubs basically admitting he’s a guy of which they don’t think much. Let him fatten up that MiLB resumé, maybe get someone to bite.
@ Mercurial Outfielder:
That assumes the only way to be helped is to face RHP and I would agree if we’re talking about an entire season or many seasons, but I do not agree when we’re talking about one month and 60 or so PA. Personally, I don’t think Vitters has much else to prove against RHP. He’s had 2118 PA in the minors and if we assume 70% of them were against righties that’s 1482 PA vs RHP. The Cubs know how good he is against righties. The fact they don’t think he’s good enough to play every day tells us something that’s being ignored here. The Cubs, based on these 1500 PA, might have good reason to believe he can’t play every day. I don’t know, but clearly there’s something in his game that the Cubs have no interest in exposing him to right away. Some teams might leave him in AAA and others would call him up.
@ Mucker:
*Exhilarating
\pedantic’d
@ Mercurial Outfielder:
He wouldn’t be more valuable if he played against righties either. The guy has over 2100 minor league plate appearances. Teams know how good he is. How he does the next two months will have only a minimal impact on his value.
@ Mercurial Outfielder:
I do think they have a pretty good idea of Vitters true skill level vs righties. They have more than 2 full seasons of data facing righties. We’re probably not going to agree on what’s the best thing to do, but it does seem like many of us agree the Cubs are probably not that high on Vitters and this is just more evidence of it.
@ mb21:
I would never, ever call up a guy about whom I felt like this. Why start the arb clock on a guy you expect to sit 70-80% of the time? Like I said: if the Cubs aren’t ready to play him, he’s not ready to play, and shouldn’t be here.
Mercurial Outfielder wrote:
I was thinking about Castro and lineup spot a bit the other night. I’ve been thinking I’d write something about it because he’s a very tough person to fit into a lineup spot. To put it in as few words as possible, he’s not a top of the order hitter (OBP), he’s not a middle of the order hitter (basic overall hitting talent, power) and so on. Thinking about it I came up with the number 6 spot as what best suits him and his talents. I want to put more thought into it though.
I agree with MO here, and I never agree with MO. If they’re not giving him a chance to fail against RHP, his failures against LHP will be even worse for his development. Rizzo struggled mightily in San Diego, but it looks like maybe those failures were very beneficial for his development.
I say give him playing time, even if he fails it will be good for him.
@ mb21:
That’s fine, and I don’t disagree, but then don’t even bother bringing him up. But I guess there’s only so many cynical ploys to sell tickets a team can run.
@ Mercurial Outfielder:
It’s also likely that Vitters will be optioned back to the minors at some point. While he has shown some improvement this year, there’s that whole thing about every year before that. (dying laughing) I’d be very surprised if he sticks on an MLB roster from this point forward and if he does it will be as a starter and probably at least one who is relatively productive. I see your argument here and I’d agree, but I just don’t think he has much chance of sticking around permanently. I’d be very surprised if he’s not optioned at least one more time and it’s probably going to be in May or June next year.
@ TheVan:
Rizzo and Vitters is comparing apples to oranges. One was a very highly thought of prospect and the other was highly thought of several years ago. If you call someone up like Rizzo he plays every day unless you call him up late in the season (see Olt, Mike).
@ mb21:
Yeah, he’s definitely a tough guy to figure out.
@ Mercurial Outfielder:
Good speed, but terrible stealing bases. Taking extra bases must be pretty good for him because his baserunning numbers are good. Some pop, but not all that much. He definitely shouldn’t be hitting at the top of the order. Or the middle of it either. 6th or 7th is where I’d put him and you generally look for someone with pop in those spots. Weird guy to figure out.
I think they’re similar in more ways than you’re giving Vitters credit for. If the Padres thought he was going to be a superstar he’d still be a Padre. If they thought he was a career Minor Leaguer, they trade him to the Cubs, or at least that’s a very likely scenario. Vitters doesn’t have much left to prove at AAA just like Rizzo didn’t when he was called up. Vitters might not be as highly touted, but he’s at that same “boom or bust” point of his minor league career that Rizzo was at, and trying to not let him fail will not help his development.
@ mb21:
Aren’t they the same age?
Letting Vitters play everyday can only help. He’ll either be good, average, or bad. Finding out which one, regardless of which it is, will only help him in the future.
Mitt Romney once asked me to rufie Rudy Giuliani. This is 100% true.
Also, John McCain said I was “good looking.” So I got that going for me.
@ TheVan:
I disagree very much and I’m pretty sure most scouts and prospect analysts do as well.
@ GBTS:
I met Mitt as well. And his cloned Ken doll kids and his Stepford wife. It was actually kind of creepy. If it had been a movie, they would’ve all turned out to be robots sent to Earth by aliens to win the election so they could take over the planet. And he’ll still probably get my vote.
@ TheVan:
How do you know it can only help? We’re only talking a month here. It’s entirely possible doing what the Cubs are doing is the best thing for him right now even thinking he can play every day. It’s not like they’re the only team to call up a prospect this time of year and use them in a platoon. Either a lot of teams are making mistakes (terrible decisions) or they know something we don’t about this. Considering how common it is, I’m thinking they know something else here.
mb21 wrote:
You disagree with which part? I’m not saying Vitters is Rizzo, or even half as good. I’m just saying he’s at the same point in his development where if they thought he was ready to be called up, he needs to be given every opportunity to either succeed or fail, and either way it will help his development.
@ TheVan:
It’s not that the Padres didn’t think highly of Rizzo, they also had Yonder Alonso and they wanted good young pitching. It’s like saying the Cubs traded Cashner because they didn’t like him. They did, but they liked Rizzo more given their situation. The Padres liked Cashner more, given their situation.
Vitters hasn’t been as highly thought of by national guys for awhile. This year was a renaissance year for him. Last year we were all basically writing him off and now we’re pissed he isn’t playing everty day at the major league level?
I get not wanting to see Valbuena play anymore. Personally, i’d rather watch a lineup of Valbuenas than anything that included Joe Mather, but those guys are going to get playing time because somebodyhas to and somebody on the Cubs doesn’t think Vitters is good enough to take those ABs away from Valbuena. I guarantee you if they thought he was better than Valbuena against righties, he’d play against them.
@ mb21:
I’ll concede they know more than I do. I’m just saying that logically, the explanations being offered in support of it are incoherent. Has anyone written anything on this?
@ mb21:
But how many teams are platooning their prospects with someone like Luis Fucking Valbuena?
@ Mercurial Outfielder:
Same age, but Rizzo’s numbers in the minors make Vitters look like kind of average. The scouts have continued to love Rizzo while they soured on Vitters. What Rizzo was doing before he went nuts the last two years is what Vitters was doing at his best. To my knowledge, hitting lefties wasn’t a huge concern for Rizzo like hitting righties has been for Vitters. Rizzo was known for playing very good defense so even if he was struggling with the bat he could help you in other ways.
Aisle424 wrote:
Why? To make a comeback? To crawl back into the wild card race? What good does playing the best matchup even do at this point? DFA Valbuena and find out what the kid can do (or can’t do for that matter). I don’t even know why I’m getting riled up over this since my care meter on this season has already bottomed out.
@ Mercurial Outfielder:
I don’t think so. It’s just not at all uncommon so I assume it’s never been investigated. I don’t think there’s any argument I’d buy that losing perhaps 60 or so PA vs righties when you’ve already had 1500 in your career is in any way going to have a negative impact on his development. It’s just not believable to me. If Vitters is still platooning next year I’m going to be more upset. Right now it’s just not a big deal.
@ mb21:
Yeah, I agree Rizzo is the better prospect.
@ mb21:
I just wonder, given that so many teams do it, if there are solid reasons for doing so, or if this is just one of these received wisdom things in which baseball teams love to traffic.
TheVan wrote:
Again, we’re talking about a guy has 1500 plate appearances vs righties. The Cubs, and every other team in baseball, know what he can do vs righties. It’s not a mystery. With that much information they know. Do they know if he’ll improve? I’m sure they have some idea and I’m sure they’re working with him on it, but there’s absolutely nothing the Cubs are going learn about him facing RHP that will in any way be more valuable than the prior 1500 PA they already have.
What were his numbers against righties after 1100 plate appearances?
@ Mercurial Outfielder:
I’m guessing the reasoning is that so many young players have found it beneficial to come to the big leagues and be around big league players. The players probably talk and learn more from the other players than they do the coaches. These guys can spot things and help them out along the way. It’s not something most minor leaguers can do. Factor in the superior coaching and I think there is more than enough reason to believe that over a short period of time just being in the big leagues is more beneficial to a player’s development than playing every day in the minors.
Are you going to learn more about hitting by being around Alfredo Amezaga and Dave Sappelt or being around Alfonso Soriano, David DeJesus and Starlin Castro?
@ GBTS:
Can’t tell if your’e serious. I”m only estimating 1500 PA (actually 1482) based on his total number of plate appearances. I can’t find splits data for him in 2011. Here are Vitters splits through 2010: http://mlsplits.drivelinebaseball.com/mlsplits/playerinfo/519388
@ mb21:
That still doesn’t explain why they should be platooned and sit during games. They can talk to those guys and work with them in the cage 7 days a week. I fully accept that jsut being around these guys helps. But it doesn’t function as a sound reason to bring them up and have them ride the pine.
@ mb21:
He definitely improved after 2007.
@ mb21:
(dying laughing)
I was saying that he’s made great strides this season, from what I understand, to earn the call-up so he might as well hit.
mb21 wrote:
I have a feeling that’s rhetorical, so I’ll refrain from responding with a snarky answer. I just don’t think Vitters playing against righties is any worse that Valbuena straddling the Mendoza line all season long. At a certain point of a lost season they might as well stop playing match-ups and start getting experience for their prospects against big league pitching.
We’ll just have to disagree because I really don’t have enough care in me to continue with the argument.
That being said, he could still see 90% of at bats versus righties after today, so I think this is all premature.
@ GBTS:
Yeah, this more a product of my hatred for Valbuena’s awful plate appearances than anything else. (dying laughing)
Let’s all just take a pause and view approach.
@ GBTS:
No way. That means I’d have watch Luis Valbuena swing like an AL pitcher.
@ Mercurial Outfielder:
Sure it does. If the Cubs don’t think he’s ready to face RHP and there’s more to gain at the big league level just being around the various people then it would be more beneficial to the player. Would it be even more beneficial to play him every day? I don’t know. Maybe. Maybe not.
It’s not just RHP that the Cubs are worried about and they are no doubt working hard with Vitters. Just because he’s not playing doesn’t mean they aren’t working on things to help him improve the areas they obviously think he needs to before he plays every day. Is this better than playing every day? I still don’t know. All I can do is assume they know what they’re doing.
Now, if he’s platooning next season then I’ll be upset. One can easily argue that it would be far more beneficial playing every day and getting an additional 300 PA or more vs righties and playing every day to improve his defense.
It’s also possible the Cubs believe his defense is so awful they can’t play him every day because even if he’s mediocre vs righties he’ll still be terrible. It’s possible they want him to gain some experience and plan to move him to LF in the offseason if they trade Soriano. Who knows?
@ Mercurial Outfielder:
He only had 36 PA vs righties that year. In Daytona and Tennesse he really struggled vs righties (about a .290 OBP, .380 slugging combined between the two levels). He was still known to struggle vs righties last year so that’s about 3 seasons in a row. He’s been better this year, which is a good sign, but he was bad vs righties prior to that.
@ mb21:
He can play and be around those guys. It’s not exclusive disjunction. So I accept that just being around MLB guys can help him, but I reject that that can be a reason to not play him.
@ mb21:
I think his real problem is pitch selection, TBH. Same for Castro. They can get their bats on too many pitches.
.184/.268/.322
Valbuena’s numbers against RHP in 2012. I can see why Vitters should platoon when Valbuena has been pretty much unstoppable. I know, I know, it has nothing to do with Valbuena, blah blah blah. I’m just saying…
TheVan wrote:
That’s not the issue. Forget about Valbuena. This is about Vitters. The Cubs don’t care about Valbuena, which is evidenced by their continued use of him even though he sucks.
Here are the options for Vitters: play every day at minor league level, play everyday at MLB level, play sparingly at MLB level.
There’s one month left in the minor league season. He’ll get about 60 PA vs righties in that time. Considering he has so many already, what exactly is this going to do for him?
He could play every day at the big league level, production vs righties and defense be damned.
He could play sparingly and used for his strengths, which at this point is hitting lefties. Everything else is a weaknees. Literally, everything. Defense. Baserunning, Hitting vs RHP.
Let’s be real here. The Cubs aren’t the first team to call someone up who has as many weaknesses as Vitters has and use him for only his strengths.
Can anyone really say which is better for Vitters? Because we can’t, or at least I assume none of you can, doesn’t it make sense to defer to the judgment of those in charge? I don’t ask that very much. I’ve been critical of the Cubs (this front office included). I just figure since I know absolutely nothing about what’s best that they probably do. Or at least I hope. I don’t know if they do, but what I do know is that I don’t know. (dying laughing)
mb21 wrote:
@ TheVan:
I was waiting for someone to be a dick and say that it was probably a wash (dying laughing)
@ Mercurial Outfielder:
I’m not using it as a reason to not play him. I’m using it as a reason that it may be more beneficial to be at the MLB level than the MiLB level. Let me ask you this, do you know for sure it’s more beneficial to play him every day at the big league level? Let’s assume the weaknesses are real and he’ll be exploited. Isn’t it possible that getting owned for 2 months could be less beneficial than playing him when it suits him best right now?
@ Mercurial Outfielder:
Same here. I’m hoping this isn’t as common when we start seeing younger guys come up in a couple years. FWIW, it’s also a weakness for Rizzo at this point too. He’s just done everything else well that it hasn’t stood out. yet.
mb21 wrote:
Since I said I’d stop arguing, I’ll wrap this up without logic or reason. I’m going to assume this isn’t about Vitters or Valbuena. It’s about me, and me having to watch another Valbuena AB. For the sake of the safety of my very expensive television, I would rather see Vitters fail than see Valbuena in the lineup.
You make good points, and I’m a selfish jerk. You win.
@ mb21:
Honestly I would rather they just play Vitters every day, but I can definitely see where you’re coming from. I just hope the people who are in charge know what the hell they’re doing.
@ mb21:
That’s an empirical question. I’m sure we could find numbers on this. Lots of players fail to begin with. But trying to mitigate that possible consequence by removing the risk and not playing him doesn’t make sense. If so many teams are doing this, I have to believe there’s a better rationale behind it than that.
Soriano a late scratch. Hurt his finger on a slide the other night, should be back tomorrow.
Also, Brooks Raley is starting tonight, so I will be forced to watch Valbuena look like he’s never swung a bat before. (dying laughing)
Mercurial Outfielder wrote:
mb21 wrote:
I don’t think anyone reading this knows the first thing about what the Cubs are thinking here, or what the optimal pedagogy might be for Vitters in this situation, so it’s all just hand-waiving (at least from me). I’m inclined to agree with MO on this one, though — his issue has seemingly been that he’s got the ability to hit pretty much anything, but that he often doesn’t hit pitcher’s pitches hard, and that he needs to figure out how to keep it in the holster a little more often. If he’s never gotten that lesson because he’s eventually managed to succeed at every level, wouldn’t he really benefit from a little failure? If he tries a minor league approach against big league hitters, that’s invariably what he’ll get.
Maybe his approach gets worse because he fails and then presses to make something happen, but I’m inclined to believe that the minor league staff will find their jobs easier once his eyes have been opened to just how good major league pitching is.
DeJesus in LF, LaHair in RF to cover for Soriano scratch.
@ uncle dave:
Everything I’ve read on hitters like Vitters and Castro suggests this exact phenomenon. They cn hit almost anything, so they get into bad habits in the minors, where the quality of the pitches they see is lesser, because they can drive bad breaking balls and changeups. But the quality of the pitches at the ML level is so much better that they struggle because they just can’t make solid contact with so-called “pitcher’s pitches” the way they could in the minors, and they get themselves out a lot. I think that’s what is behind a lot of Castro’s struggles. Pitchers aren’t throwing him as many strikes, and when they do throw strikes, they are not quality strikes, because Castro doesn’t wait for a pitch he can turn into a line drive; he waits for a pitch he can get his bat on. Vitters did that same thing last night.
Why would the Cubs platoon Vitters as soon as he is called up, but not LaHair, Rizzo, or even Campana, all of whom have stark platoon splits?
We disagree on whether it may be beneficial. You guys make some strong arguments. Can we at least agree that it’s not going to do any harm and that the Cubs weighed their options here and decided it best that Vitters come up and play vs lefties to start out? I don’t mean to make arguments that it’s for the better or worse. Like I’ve said, I don’t know. I don’t have the foggiest damn clue what’s best for Josh Vitters. However, I don’t buy any argument that this is going to adversely affect his future. He’ll get a chance to hit righties at some point. It would be a shame if he didn’t, but considering the minor league season ends shortly, I fail to see any reason that playing another month every day at the minor league level would somehow be of great benefit that playing part time at the MLB level doesn’t offer.
Jason McLeod said at one point prior to the season when asked when to call guys up or promote them and he said “they’ll tell you.” He didn’t mean that some guy is going to come up and say “I’m ready to be promoted, yo.” He was talking about something else altogether. Considering the success these guys had together in Boston and San Diego for Hoyer/McLeod, I’m going to assume they have a pretty good idea of what’s best for the development of a player. That doesn’t mean they’re always right, but when I don’t know, I’m definitely going to defer to them. That’s especially true with player development because what they did for the Red Sox and Padres is impressive.
As for trades and free agency we know a lot more about that and can more safely evaluate such transactions. We know Theo and company were as prone to the huge contract as Hendry and company were. We know they gave out some real bad contracts and some real good ones (like Hendry). When it comes to player development though, I don’t think there’s much of a comparison. When I may have questioned what Hendry and company were doing, I’m going to defer to these guys. At least for awhile.
That’s the best argument I have because there’s so little I know about it. I just don’t buy that playing one more month every day in the minor leagues is vastly superior to being called up now and used in a platoon. To me, that argument doesn’t make sense considering how little of the season is left in AAA.
I understand you wanting to see these guys. If I’m going to watch the Cubs I’d much rather see Vitters play too, but thankfully for me I’m just DVRing this shit and watching the relevant parts later.
@ Mercurial Outfielder:
Rizzo was called up at mid-season. LaHair has been platooned this year. Campana only started 36 games this year. Only 62 in his career.
@ mb21:
Agreed. Like I said, it’s more about me wanting to see Vitters play than anything, but it just struck me today that the rationale given for the move on Twitter and other places was inconsistent at best and incoherent at worst, and since I do give the FO the benefit of the doubt, given the paucity of information we have compared to them, I just wonder what the actual rationale is.
Stanton off the DL tonight as well.
GBTS’ fantasy squadron —-> Looking up
@ mb21:
But those guys all played the minute they hit the team. Vitters is being treated in a very different way. I think we’re learning something about both he and the FO right now, but I’m not sure it’s what any of us think we’re learning about them. (dying laughing)
@ Mercurial Outfielder:
There’s one thing we know for sure: there’s absolutely no way any Cubs beat writer asks the Cubs this question in a way to get a meaningful answer. (dying laughing)
@ mb21:
Oh, not a chance. (dying laughing)
Re-reading this post now, and I think the Garza injury was more devastating to Theo’s rebuilding plan than we will ever know.
@ Mercurial Outfielder:
I think it says way more about Vitters than the front office. I just looked at the first season game logs for Ellsbury, Lowrie and Pedroia and they came up and played every day. Rizzo came up and played every day for both the Padres and Cubs. Jackson is going to play almost every day. The top prospects who have come up for the Sox, Padres and Cubs have played every day. Vitters hasn’t.
These guys have shown they’ll turn a position over to these guys when they get to the big leagues. That Vitters is platooning with someone like Valbuena tells us A LOT about Josh Vitters. Or at the very least it tells us a lot about what they think of Josh Vitters.
@ Mercurial Outfielder:
They were looking for a big time 3B prospect close to MLB ready so you could be right.
@ mb21:
Agreed, but I think it tells us that this FO is very confident in their evaluative methods, as well.
mb21 wrote:
Cue Doodles McCheesedick (dying laughing).
Seriously, I also agree with this, contrary to what I wrote above:
mb21 wrote:
Still, I do spend some time thinking about why hitters take steps forward and turn into legit MLB players, and it seems like the most common thing that happens is that they figure out how to wait for a good pitch to hit. It really is about the most important thing that sets MLB hitters apart from everyone else, and I think that it’s what creates the phenomenon of the 28-year-old AAAA masher. Minor league pitchers just can’t throw breaking pitches for strikes (or for that matter, command the strikes that they do throw) like their major league counterparts. So you get these guys who have repeated AAA three or four times who can sit back and kill their pitch on a regular basis, but who never even get to see their pitch at the major league level.
But you get a guy like Castro, or like Vitters, and because they have superior hands and plate coverage, they don’t even need to take that leap to be moderately successful. The question then becomes whether or not they can learn this skill and take the next step. Sammy Sosa is about the best example I ever saw of that happening. He went from being another guy with sick natural talent and no discipline to a guy who should be a no-brainer first ballot HOF slugger simply by figuring out the difference between a slider over the plate and one that would disappear off the outside corner.
Part of me does think that the job of teaching players who are in that situation is easier once they’ve tasted a bit of failure, especially if they have a personality that can absorb a bit of failure (which I’m inclined to believe that most good players do). In that case, I wouldn’t mind seeing these guys play every day.
The other part of me knows that I’m going to watch the game tonight from my couch while drinking a tallboy in my boxers. So I guess I should shut up and let the coaching staff do their thing (dying laughing).
I have to admit, I’m a little surprised no one asked for details on my Mitt Romney rufie claim. (dying laughing)
@ GBTS:
It blindsided us.
@ GBTS:
Was there a “wolf pack” involved?
/Hangover’d
Boston’s lineup isn’t as formidable without David Ortiz and with all the underachieving but Dempster is still throwing shutout ball through five full.
Aramis just hit a homer.
He is now: .295/.356/.520
Cubs third basemen are: .209/.292/.344
@ GBTS:
(dying laughing), well done
@ Rizzo the Rat:
OMG MEANINGLESS HOMERS IN AUGUST COLOR ME SURPRISED
@ GBTS:
Yeah, the great thing about the Cubs’ current third basemen is that you don’t have to worry about them wracking up gaudy numbers when it doesn’t count.
Luis Valbuena: not a number gatherer.
@ Rizzo the Rat:
(dying laughing) Was the all-caps too subtle?
@ Rizzo the Rat:
He gathers all the wrong numbers.
Dempster just gave up a 3-run bomb, but all runs unearned thanks to Ian Kinsler’s error.
@ Rice Cube:
Oooh…under review!
@ josh:
I thought “it” was the generic pronoun. As in the Hope Monster was pretty proud of itself last night, as Brett Jackson kept K’ing away.
Mercurial Outfielder wrote:
I call bullshit
.@ GBTS:
What’s a rufie?
/Statler and Waldorfed
@ GBTS:
No, I was responding to the joke with another joke.
Demp had a weird outing. 6.2 innings, 6 K’s, 1 walk, 1 HR, 3 unearned runs.
@ GBTS:
so…can you explain it?
@ SVB:
when i was a kid, i thought statler and waldorf were the two coolest guys on the planet. know whats changed since then? jack shit.
@ EnricoPallazzo:
No. He needs to.
/Harry Reid’d
@ EnricoPallazzo:
@ GBTS:
Gob: I’m gonna speak very carefully in case she’s with you.
Michael: You’re right.
Gob: Right about what? She’s there? What’s going on? Who’s with you? If it’s Marta, say “nobody.”
Michael: Nobody.
Gob: Well, now I don’t know what’s going on.
@ EnricoPallazzo:
Still my favorite Muppets
@ Rice Cube:
i had to look at that one for a second before i noticed the lower right corner…that is fucking awesome.
@ uncle dave:
I think players take steps forward, but I’m not as certain as you that pitch recognition (that’s what we’re talking about, I think) is the common thread. Did Sosa take more walks because his slugging went from about .520 over 4 years to .630 or because he was more patient? I’m guessing it’s a combination. Sosa had 3 times the number of intentional walks over his peak that he did the 4 years prior to it. Pitchers just did not want to pitch to him like they did before. I do think he improved, but I think some of the discipline is the result of the power *maybe a lot of it).
@ EnricoPallazzo:
Pretty sure that’s what it was like when Theo was trying to explain to Dempster that the Dodgers didn’t think he was worth a fart in the wind.
Speaking of Statler and Waldorf:
@ EnricoPallazzo:
Unfortunately either Statler/Waldorf or the MST3K guys have to be flipped to make it work, but it is still brilliant.
My position is Valbuena is worthless vs RHP so why is he platooning with someone so bad?
BTW Dave, great comment.
@ mb21:
Fair enough. Not to veer further off topic, but this conversation reminds me to suggest to anyone who will listen that this is one of the best baseball books ever written:
If I get the time, I’d like to start a Forum post on baseball reading. Since, you know, we won’t have much else to do for the rest of the season (dying laughing).
OK, we had this conversation last time I tried to get all fancy here, but it looks like the idiot buttons are broken. Either that, or the browser at my work computer blows goats. Here’s the book:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Science-Hitting-Ted-Williams/dp/0671621033/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1344391337&sr=8-1&keywords=williams+on+hitting
6 straight strikeouts for Jackson.
@ EnricoPallazzo:
“I’m in love with your brother-in-law.”
“You’re in love with your own brother? The one in the army?”
“No? Your sister’s husband.”
“You’re in love with Michael?”
“No, that’s your sister’s brother.”
“No, I’m my sister’s brother. You’re in love with…me!”
“I’m in love with Tobias.”
“My brother-in-law?”
“I know it can never be, so I’m joining the army.”
“To be with your brother?”
@ mb21:
Thanks, not that I know anything about hitting (dying laughing)…it’s fun to speculate, tho.
@ GBTS:
you know they officially started filming the tv show today, right?
Holy shit, Tony Gwynn must weigh 400 lbs now.
Wow, I guess the Padres had their own buntfest.
Man, I am glad Luis Valbuena is playing. Happy as a puppy with two peckers.
Raley has lost the plate.
@ Mercurial Outfielder:
Hey, he broke up the no-hitter, give the man some cred (dying laughing)
@ Rice Cube:
He also acted like he’d never seen a player bunt, ever. (dying laughing)
@ Mercurial Outfielder:
That’s why they DFA’d his son. He ate him.
Raley is lucky the Padres started swinging at this shit. (dying laughing)
@ GBTS:
And the guy that DFA’d him.
@ Mercurial Outfielder:
False.
Josh, fat Hope Monster really makes me laugh. Well done.
I’d say Raley is now learning the difference between a AAA offense and an MLB one, but I just remembered he’s playing against the Padres…
Drink everytime Jackson gets a K.
Brett Jackson just needs a homer to complete the 3TO.
Nice AB for JAckson. Ohlendorf was really baiting him.
@ GBTS:
Thanks.
Petco Park is an abomination. Line drives just die in the air. I hate the Padres just for their bush league ballpark.
BABIP hates the Cubs.
TOOTBLAN
Josh —> moved?
Rizzo crushed that ball. Then the baseball gods intervened.
Rice Cube wrote:
fix’d
@ Mercurial Outfielder:
Didn’t wv23 make a concession for lineout double plays?
@ Rice Cube:
Yep. All moved and settled. New sofa arrives in a couple of weeks. In the meantime —> Camp chairs.
Anybody have any insight on soundproofing a room on the cheap so that I don’t bother the neighbors with guitar playing?
(dying laughing)
@ josh:
Just play Classical Gas, no one will complain.
@ josh:
I think MacGyver did something like this once.
http://www.ehow.com/list_7465933_cheap-soundproofing-alternatives.html
This might help, your room will look ghetto but it’d be cheap…
http://www.ehow.com/how_2294052_soundproof-cheap.html
Valbuena —> shut you all right up
@ Rice Cube:
A couple more like that and he’ll be hitting .200. I’m fucking trembling with excitement over here.
@ GBTS:
Kid was fine, but you should have heard the LECTURE I got later.
Kaspar is really good.
Just tell your neightbor to sandproof his room.
@ Mercurial Outfielder:
It’s the stuff of legend.
@ Rice Cube:
I think I’m just going to sell my amp. The new house is great, but my office leaves something to be desired. I knew it was unfinished, but I didn’t think to check if it had a grounded outlet. Can’t exactly run a top of the line computer system without a damn ground.
Also, Cubs suck.
Bunting men over with a 6 run lead. NL “strategy.” Scintillating stuff, this.
@ Rice Cube:
Mendoza Line hitters are an underrepresented class in the HOF, for sure.
@ Mercurial Outfielder:
Most of them pitched pretty well.
I thought Castro was moved down in the order.
Holy shit. Tony Gwynn won’t stop growing.
@ mb21:
Sveum changed up the order when Sori was scratched.
@ mb21:
He’s fucking massive now.
I think Tony Gwynn could eat Dave Sappelt.
Jackson swings at a lot of pitches out of the zone low.
@ Mercurial Outfielder:
That’s an understatement. Dude could swallow Petco Field.
Ewww…good battle, bad strikeout.
Jackson didn’t swing at a single strike that AB.
@ Mercurial Outfielder:
I know. He has a fantastic eye, but can really expand the zone at times. It’s weird.
@ mb21:
He’s trying to hit homers, and going after low pitches he thinks he can uppercut. He’s got some really shitty habits as a hitter.
@ Mercurial Outfielder:
He’s not the only one struggling tonight though. I’m sure it’s something they’ll talk to him about, hopefully in a manner that helps unlike whatever it was he was doing in Iowa.
Hey everyone, let’s swing at shit in dirt and see what happens. I’m sure this is a recipe for success.
(dying laughing)
Somebody call me if this game gets exciting.
Harrumph
Off a RHP, no less.
Vitters with a decent AB vs a righty (dying laughing)
@ Recalcitrant Blogger Nate:
INCONCEIVABLE
Jackson has a serious problem.
This lineup strikes out too much.
Wow. Jackson doesn’t just strike out a lot. He strikes out a LOT. Like at record breaking levels.
Valbuena just might be the worst player on this roster, and that’s saying something.
You guys remember what Tony Gwynn looked like his last few playing years? He was nearing house status even then.
Anyway, Josh, just take one of those adapters that you plug into the outlet–the kind with the wire that you are supposed to wrap around the screw that holds the cover plate on (or the outlet in the box). Attach a long wire to that wire, run it out the window, tack it to the side of the house, and bury it in the ground. You can use that heavy gauge speaker wire you won’t be using for its regular purpose now. You could wrap the wire around the pipe for your spigot outside, but the pipe that feeds the spigot from inside has probably been replaced by PVC or Pex (or will be shortly with the black pipe rusts through) so that won’t work anymore. This approach is guaranteed to match your sound-proofing. Not really that sure if it’ll protect your computer, but, you know, Faulkner used a pen.
@ SVB:
Well, like, my uninterruptable power supply has a building wiring fault indicator that basically means it isn’t properly grounded, and if that’s one then if there is a surge, my computer is screwed and they won’t honor their warranty. I’m more worried about the computer being screwed. What I ended up doing was taking it around to the other grounded outlets in the basement and found one (the washing machine outlet) that was grounded properly, according to my UPC, then bought a 50′ heavy duty extension cord rated well over twice the wattage my computer’s power supply draws at peak usage and tacked it one of the floor support beams and ran it through a hole in the wall. It’s not a perfect solution, and I’m not sure if the warranty covers extension cords, but at least computer is protected (doubly, since the outlet is a GFCI).
Saw Carlos Quentin back when he was a White Sock. We were sitting out in left field. I don’t know why but I started joking how we shouldn’t be surprised if he starts picking grass or gets fascinated by a butterfly that happens by. He just seemed kind of dumb. Probably unfair.
@ josh:
Also, this is an old house, so I have metal pipes everywhere, and I did try a three prong adaptor, but it still gave me the fault, so the outlet case isn’t properly grounded or I wasn’t getting good enough contact or something. The extension cord is doing the trick, though.
@ josh:
If you were running a 50′ extension cord through the wall, why not just run a ground wire from the washing machine outlet to the outlet in your office?
dj’s minor league shit: http://www.obstructedview.net/minor-leagues/the-children-are-the-future-cubs-minor-league-update-sponsored-by-city-wok.html